Here we continue with the second part of our series addressing Charles Weisman’s booklet Facts And Fictions Regarding Noah’s Flood. In the first part, we saw that the actual language of the biblical account of the Flood in Genesis does not support the contention that the flood was worldwide.
In this next part, Weisman addresses the archeological evidence of the world’s great civilizations that existed at the time of the Flood — and shows that there is no evidence in the archeological record that these civilizations experienced any disruptions or setbacks during the time at which the Flood took place.
Of course some of these ancient cultures had their own myths about a “Great Flood” — such as the Sumerians — and the similarities between their flood myth and Noah’s flood are striking. However, the dating of these different flood myths does not line up with the chronology of the Bible, nor does the archeological evidence from these civilizations line up with these floods having occurred at the same time.
And keep in mind that ancient civilizations such as the Minoans and Phoenicians were advanced seafaring peoples — and if there were a great flood, they would have had thousands of ships and boats at their disposal to survive any catastrophic flood.
Weisman doesn’t deny that there could have been catastrophic floods in more ancient times — prior to recorded history — which could have been the basis of these different flood myths across different cultures. But just because there were difference flood myths from different cultures doesn’t mean they refer to the same historical flood — and certainly not the same flood in the Bible — the dating of which precludes the idea that all these floods are one and the same.
Here Weisman provides an overview of the great ancient civilizations and shows a lack of evidence in the archeological record of any catastrophic interruptions that we would expect to see if there had been a worldwide flood.
Weisman writes:
The Flood of Genesis was a true historical event which occurred at a specific period of time.
The date at which the Flood occurred — according to Ussher’s Bible Chronology — was in the year 2348 B.C. Frederick Haberman [in his book Tracing Our Ancestors, p.16] states that this date was correct within four years — “the correct date for the Deluge is from November 1, 2345 (Genesis 7:11), to November 11, 2344 B.C. (Genesis 8:14).”
This date of the Flood falls within a period of history known as the “Bronze Age,” which
dates from about 3000 B.C. to 1200 B.C. The significant discovery of bronze — along with
other advances such as increased trade routes, ox carts, domestication of draft horses, the
bellows, potters wheel, and the plough — resulted in a cultural revolution second in importance
only to the modern Industrial Revolution.
If there was a worldwide cataclysmic flood, it would have upset world progress so drastically that it would have taken centuries for the world to recover. However, there is no evidence of this at all as the Bronze Age did not stop and then restart all over again — or revert to the Stone Age.
The Flood of Genesis occurred at a period of time in which there exists definite traces of
recorded history. While written records of this time are sparse, there also exist other
archaeological records such as city ruins, tools, pottery, weapons, skeletal remains, and other
artifacts which support the chronicles and written records that do exist.
These records all show that there were many great civilizations existing in various parts of the world at the time Noah’s Flood occurred — with a worldwide population of 50 to 100 million. If a worldwide flood occurred at this time, the earth’s population would not yet have recovered the loss.
The Flood of Genesis thus occurred in a period of time in which we have a verifiable history
of numerous civilizations existing with no evidence of a catastrophic disruption from a
worldwide flood. If there were a worldwide flood, then all civilizations and cultures would
have been destroyed along with their advancements, governments, inventions, cultural habits,
languages, and arts which were peculiar to each civilization.
What history does reveal to us, however, is that none of the known civilizations and cultures
throughout the world have large gaps or voids in their chronology as a result of being
destroyed by a universal flood. It certainly would not be plausible to believe that they were
destroyed — and then suddenly — within a few years — miraculously reappeared in their original size and strength.
The six oldest civilizations that had an ongoing and well-established culture according to
recorded history are: Sumer (Mesopotamia), Egypt, China, Minoan, Indus Valley, and the
Holy Land or Phoenicia.
Some of the earliest written records of an advanced civilization are those of the Sumerian
civilization in Mesopotamia. Its first dynasty, according to Sumerian King-Lists, dates to
about 3350 B.C. Laurence Waddell has done exhaustive research on Sumerian chronicles, seals, King-Lists, and other records which show a continuous, ongoing civilization from 3350 B.C.
well through the period of the Flood [see his book The Makers of Civilization In Race And History].
In fact, Mesopotamia was undergoing great prosperity and expansion during the period of the Flood under the well-known ruler, Sargon The Great (2300 B.C.). Further growth and expansion continued under his grandson, Naram-Sin (2250 B.C.). By the time of Abraham (1930 B.C.), Mesopotamia was heavily populated and a thriving center of civilization and culture. These historical facts could never have occurred if its entire civilization had been obliterated by a flood.
Of all ancient civilizations that of Egypt is the most familiar. Egypt’s dynastic history started
with the uniting of upper and lower Egypt by King Menes about 3100 B.C. The period of
Egyptian history known as the “Old Kingdom” extended from 2800 to 2175 B.C. — which
covered the third through the tenth dynasties. There was no record of a sudden and complete
interruption within this great epoch of Egyptian history by a great deluge. Further, the Step
Pyramid, the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx and other Egyptian monuments that were built prior
to the Flood would surely have been destroyed by the magnitude of the flood described by
creationists.
A reasonably accurate history of China begins around 3000 B.C. Valuable information on
this culture has been obtained from the Chinese sacred book known as Shu King. According
to the chronology of this text — and verified by archaeological finds — China was undergoing a
prosperous period during the Yao Dynasty (between 2400 – 2200 B.C.) with no record of a
cataclysmic interruption of its civilization.
Minoan history is perhaps as old as that of Egypt. Based on the island of Crete, the Minoan
civilization entered a high state of cultural advancement about 2500 B.C., with the founding
of Knossos the capital city. The Minoan civilization is often viewed as the first great
civilization of Europe and the focal point of world history around the middle of the second
millennium B.C. It had already produced many artistic works, established cities, had an
alphabet, and made use of bronze prior to the date of the Flood.
It continued to grow and develop — and by 2000 B.C. became established as a center of trade and culture until 1470 B.C. when it was destroyed by a volcano. The archaeological remains of the Minoan civilization — including hundreds of written records on clay tablets — all show a continuous ongoing culture from 2800 to 1470 B.C. No devastating flood occurred on Crete during this period of time.
The civilization of the Indus Valley also has some very early beginnings. Laurence Waddell — who performed diggings and research also in this location — shows by ancient Indian Official King-Lists and Chronicles that this civilization’s recorded history extends back to 3100 B.C. [see The Makers of Civilization In Race And History].
A thriving cultural state started here around 2500 B.C. — notably within its two major cities, Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, which rivaled that of Egypt and Mesopotamia. This ancient civilization — which also contained some 100 smaller cities, towns and villages — continued uninterrupted until 1500 B.C. when it fell for unknown reasons.
We also see the same situation with Phoenicia — a thriving cultural and trade center existing
before, during and after the Flood.
These six great civilizations, along with a host of other cultural groups such as the Japanese, the American Indians, and the Negro tribes of Africa — all survived the period of the Flood. Thus, the evidence provided by history shows that no devastating universal flood could have
occurred since the time of recorded history — about 3500 B.C.
How could all of these civilizations, cultures, and tribes — along with the tens of millions of people that embodied them — suddenly disappear from history and then suddenly reappear all over the world, carrying on with the same cultural habits, the same style of art, the same writing and language, the same architectural designs, etc., that were often unique to each civilization?
History paints a very grim picture for those “fundamental” Christians and creationists who
proclaim the Bible tells of a worldwide flood. In fact, it proves that no universal flood had
ever occurred in the past 6,000 years.
I question I have had is how to account for even a local flood as to earth’s geography. Water seeks its level. If local hills and mountains were covered, that still means a major flood that would have earth-wide impact. This issue seems to be ignored by the local flood advocates which hurts their cause. Hard questions need to be addressed. Where on earth were the Adamites such that a local flood could destroy them all and cover the local mountains and yet not affect most of the rest of the world? It seems more logical to me that the flood did have a world-wide impact even if it didn’t destroy all other non-Adamic peoples or submerge most of their lands. Use the tool floodmap.net and play around with world ocean depths and see what happens when water levels are lower or higher.
Here is a theory for consideration. The windows of heaven were opened and the fountains of the deep were opened. This implies that water came into the earth’s system that wasn’t here before. It had to go somewhere, and it receded into the oceans. That implies that the oceans were lower prior to Noah’s flood than they were afterward. We have considerable evidence now that this is the case, as we have findings of amazing structures, dwellings, temples, etc., under the sea, such as under the water in the Mediterranean basin. This implies water rose, not that the Mediterranean basis sunk.
Suppose, for example, the Adamic descendants were living in a giant fertile plain. Perhaps even around the Mediterranean which was much lower, or the Black Sea basin, etc., and perhaps even the Straits of Gibraltar were not under water at that time. A catastrophic flood that would rise dozens or a hundreds of meters would have the intended effect locally but would also have a catastrophic effect on the other continents as well. We don’t have to choose between a global flood (submerging everything) and a purely local flood with no earth-wide effects. That seems like a false dichotomy to me. It seems more logical to see the effect as global, but not to the extent of killing off all other non-Adamics or even submerging most of the other continents. Just massive flooding everywhere in low-lying areas, raising the oceans to their current levels.
If the entire globe were flooded underwater, there would be nowhere for the waters to recede to.
It would be physically impossible.
All receding water flows downhill with gravity.
If the globe is uniformly flooded underwater, there is no downhill for the water to flow anywhere.
Yes, the Bible says the water “receded” (Genesis 8:3), but obviously those who wrote this had no concept of physics.
The only way that the waters could have receded is that God overcame the laws of physics and made it happen unnaturally.
Also, there isn’t enough water on the entire planet to flood it completely underwater.
In fact, the only way the flood could have happened, whether local or worldwide, is that it was completely orchestrated by God, in complete defiance of physics and laws of nature.
Christians who claim that the flood obeyed any natural laws have no understanding of these laws.
Also, the entire world could not be repopulated in such a short time with 8 racially homogeneous people.
These leaves two options:
1. God made it happen from beginning to end in defiance of physical and biological laws.
2. The flood was a fable not to be taken literally.
You don’t have to believe that the flood literally happened in order to be a “good Christian”.
Charles, I’m not sure if you are engaging with my comment, but if you are (because your comment is indented under mine), then it doesn’t seem like you actually read what I wrote, for I did not suggest at all that the entire world was submerged. I’m asking a different question as to how to account for a local flood geographically that covered visible mountains and hills and yet did not affect other geographic areas in the world. Do you see the difference? Show me a place on the current geography of the European continent where this effect could have been contained locally and not impacted the rest of the continents in some way as to low-lying areas of those other continents.
I offered a theory for that as to the eastern Mediterranean basin or the Black Sea basin. You didn’t interact with that at all but seem to have accused me of supporting a worldwide submersion of everything, as if you didn’t read what I actually wrote.
csalt…..
“… It seems more logical to see the effect as global, but not to the extent of killing off all other non-Adamics or even submerging most of the other continents. Just massive flooding everywhere in low-lying areas, raising the oceans to their current levels….”
Interesting. Thanks for the contribution!
I’m enjoying this series, but this particular set of argumentation was weak in my view. I lean towards the local flood view, but I would never base arguments on continuity of Bronze Age civilizations based on a flood dating of around 2345 BC using Ussher’s chronology. In my view, the evidence is overwhelming that the LXX chronology reflects actual original ancient Hebrew text chronology, as opposed to the corrupted Masoretic text chronology compiled by Jesus-hating rabbis. Ussher’s entire premise is wrong in using the MT chronology, as he is off by a 1,000 years. If the flood was actually around 3300 BC, as evidenced under the LXX chronology, the arguments raised in this article are straw man arguments and prove nothing. That is why this is a weak set of arguments to make as to the debate on the scope of the flood. The entire Bronze Age is essentially after the flood, according to the LXX chronology.
Here’s a good intro into the chronology issue:
https://biblearchaeology.org/images/Genesis-5-and-11/Smith-Henry-The-Case-for-the-Septuagints-Chronology-in-Gen-5-and-11-ICC.pdf
The Septuagint records the flood happening around 3298BC. Which is much older (used by Jesus and the Disciples) than the Western Masoretic (finished around 900AD) which relied upon Talmudic anti-Christs for “translations.”
https://www.bible.ca/maps/Bible-chronology-age-of-earth-date-Genesis-5-11-Septuagint-text-LXX-original-autograph-primeval-5554BC.jpg
Also Shem lived for 600 years, as the generations of Eber were leaving 500yrs. Drop a wise servant of God in the woods with 3 other growing families for a hundred+ years and see what happens.
As true followers of Jesus, we shall read His Word in it’s whole, without Talmudic sorcery to diminish God’s power and intent.
“19And the water prevailed exceedingly upon the earth, and covered all the high mountains which were under heaven. 20Fifteen cubits upwards was the water raised, and it covered all the high mountains.”
—Genesis 7:19-20 [Septuagint LXX]
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
—2 Peter 2:1
The meaning of “earth” in Genesis 7:19 is addressed in the previous article on the Flood — not how you are representing it, as it we should take the English translation at face value::
How Noah’s ‘Worldwide’ Flood Depends On Mistranslating One Simple Hebrew Word — ‘Erets’
https://christiansfortruth.com/how-noahs-worldwide-flood-depends-on-mistranslating-one-simple-hebrew-word-erets/
CS Michael,
What side of this theoretical debate are you on? Local or worlwide?
Thanks, West
West,
Worldwide.
Im all for understanding the root and intent — To grow in knowledge, respect, love, fear, and obedience of Jesus Christ. But in this case I believe Genesis 7:19-20 settles it.
“And the water prevailed exceedingly upon the earth, and covered all the high mountains which were under heaven. 20Fifteen cubits upwards was the water raised, and it covered all the high mountains.”
—Genesis 7:19-20 [Septuagint LXX]
Blessings,
CS Michael
CS Michael,
“……Blessings…..”
I appreciate that. However…………. when you quote 2 Peter 2:1 you are “implying” that anyone who believes in a Local Flood is a false teacher.
I’ll be honest ………… I don’t know for sure because I wasn’t there when it happened. But logically for me, I believe a Local Flood makes more sense.
I sure hope you are not putting this “knowledge” into the category of something that would determine one’s personal Salvation.
Blessings to you, West
West,
I certainly am not applying 2 Peter 2:1 to all local flood believers. However I am cautious of Weisman here. I know from experience of being a ‘Christian Truther’, that once had a large platform, that it’s not hard to get caught up trying to find more and more truth to share, that you can sometimes lead folks off trail.
I don’t put this topic onto Salvation determination — Accepting and following Christ Jesus is what matters.
I believe when seeing God as powerful enough to flood the entire earth it brings Him more glory. Which I think the context provided by Gen 7:19-20 implies.
Blessings,
CS Michael
CS Michael,
Thank you for the dialogue. I am not pro-weisman or against weisman. I do have many of his books/pamphlets. I have not yet studied all of them. And in fact, I completely reject his book on “marriage”. So, I’m certainly not some kind of disiple of his. It’s too bad he is not still alive to have these discussions with.
That being said ………. looking at Weisman’s work in total, what gives you concern? His book on marriage for me of course is a red flag.
I’m pleased that you believe this issue is not a Salvation Issue. 🙂
“….Accepting and following Christ Jesus is what matters…..”
Amen.
Thanks for the dialogue. 🙂
How would a local flood cover all the high mountains, and not the rest of the earth?
Genesis 6 tells us that God was appalled by the wickedness of humanity and moved to wipe it from the face of the earth.
If the flood were localized then would that mean all of those civilizations and famed rulers that Wiseman mentions are not considered human?
Whether it’s worldwide or localized, a Great Flood as described in Genesis defies all natural laws.
God must have intervened to overcome those laws in order to make it happen, or, more likely, it’s just a fable, a myth, just like the flood in Sumerian myth.
Far too many Christians believe they must take all these stories in the Bible literally, as if they really happened, in order to show they “really believe” in God. Nonsense.
You don’t prove your faith by trying to reconcile myths with the physical world. You prove your faith by understanding the meaning behind the stories, and changing our sinful ways.
Jews try and use history, or at least their interpretation of it, to “debunk” the Bible. Because they do this, I am in the camp that the Bible proves history.
Other comments have suggested ways that the flood comports with natural laws, and Noah is such a foundation for what follows in the Bible that I can’t cotton to his saga being some sort of myth/parable. When the main contradiction to the word of God is the figuring of man, the supposed dates for Biblical events, my position is that it is man who is off the mark. Doubly so in this case as we have strong evidence that the Jews have attempted to alter the timeline of the Flood in order to deny the divinity of Christ.
Good points RB.
As for ‘natural laws’ It’s not much of a stretch if we all just believed God and not man (Masonic NASA).
The Bible says this place is unmovable, set on pillars, with waters above, and a firmament.
Mystery Babylon is in the sorcery business (Rev 18:23) of telling us that up is down and down is up. Satan wishes us to submit to his earthly priests in NASA/Science uniforms as they parade their most believable CGI and Hollywood sorcery in front of us. Clogging our minds so we doubt God (Gen 3:3).
Then when we go ourselves with a friend to an 8 mile lake on a clear night with one person on each end and a couple flashlights; we don’t believe that it’s their flashlight we’re seeing across the flat trueness of the lake — when it should be 42.68 feet below the surface.
https://imgur.com/ewLBM1u
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;..” —Romans 3:4
https://youtu.be/Y_wLf4UWZ04
The ‘whole world’ 3000 years ago would have been a much smaller place than today. We know our world reasonably well now. If a cataclysmic flood hit the Middle East in biblical times, it would be extremely easy to assume it a global flood. Floods like these do occur from time to time on this planet. Look at the ‘scab lands’ in the USA….now understood to be the result of a 2 mile high ice dam letting go and flooding millions of acres of land. Imagine being there to see that! You would certainly think end of times have begun.
One doesn’t necessarily have to accept the chronology of a single Irish monk who decided how old the world was. My understanding of the translations we use are riddle with compromises or error in certain words as this very site just recently pointed out. I believe the overall text and messages of the Bible. But I don’t think it’s free of some minor translation errors.
The flood for example. The point of a recent article was on the use and translation of the word “erets”. This for me it makes perfect sense that both flood story of the Bible being true and not covering the entire surface of the globe.
Further I don’t think the Irish monk got the chronology right. Lots of reasons for that in addition to the Bible itself pointing out that quite clearly not only did people live many centuries earlier. But that there were already cities when God created Adam and Eve. Something that I hear very little commentary on today.
Further we now know that there were somewhat advanced civilizations at least 40,000 years ago in both Turkey and India. There are huge ancient cities under the Bat of Bengal. My guess is that they and lists of other coastal and low lying cities all got flooded at the end of the ice and and that many more got scoured off the surface of the earth during the glacial advance.
Was there an Atlantis, I dunno. I think there was a more advanced civilization and that it disappearing in a cataclysm rings true. How advanced no possible way to tell. Certainly more advanced than the ancient Egyptian we know of. Their writings claim they were a colony.
To date NO ONE can reasonably explain how the pyramid or Sphinx were built. As the Egyptians we know of had only copper and bronze tools as well as boats incapable of floating a single block, it’s absurd to claim those structures were built by the Egyptians we are familiar with.
It’s like modern Syria. The Syrians of the biblical era were white. The Syrians of today just live on top of the old civilization. I think the time of the biblical flood was more likely 10-12,000 years ago. This allows for multiple accounts from various cultures. It also accounts for the disruption in civilization we see.
For example we know that 40,000 in Turkey they were already carving, erecting and building massive and complex stone structures. Then suddenly there’s a gap until 6,000 years ago. There’s simply no other way to square that circle beyond recognizing a cataclysm of some sorts.
Yes, underwater archeology is a big thing now, and there’s unmistakable proof of large cities that are now underwater.
There’s a huge city underwater off the coast of Japan, and another one off the coast of Florida, among many others.
It’s a huge mistake to try to account for the entire history of the earth into what the Bible says.
The Bible is about a small part of the story, the story of Adam and his descendants only.
There have been a lot of civilizations and races outside the Adamic creation.
And Christians need to accept that fact or end up looking like fools trying to defend their fundamentalist and narrow views.
The Bible makes no claim that it accounts for everything that has ever happened on Earth.
The account of the creation is intentionally vague and open to speculation because even those who wrote it didn’t know the whole picture, and couldn’t have known it.
Every day there is archeological evidence that contradicts what we thought we knew, and we need to be flexible in our understanding if we have any desire to know the whole truth.
I thought the Phoenician empire was an Israelite empire, how could it exist before Jacob?
The Japanese as we know them couldn’t have existed before the Flood, as the dirty secret of the Japanese is that they are a mixed race, the original Jomon were conquered by the mainland Yayoi. Jomon have sharper features and are hairier, Yayoi are like the Koreans and Chinese. Then there are the Ainu. Plus, as I learned from here, the Samurai and the ruling classes of Japan were originally white, as seems to be the case for every civilization with castes or “Forbidden City” style segregation.
Does Wiseman take into account the (((timeline manipulation))) detailed back here: https://christiansfortruth.com/how-jews-changed-the-timeline-of-the-bible-in-order-to-deny-the-divinity-of-christ/ ?
More grim news for ‘fundamental Christians and creationists’ comes from Russell Gmirkin’s book, ‘Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus’ (2006), which argues that the Pentateuch was plagiarized from earlier writings. Page 110, footnote 157:
‘The flood remains the clearest case of dependence of Genesis on Mesopotamian legend. While flood stories as such do not have to be connected, the episode with the birds in Genesis viii. 6-12 is so close to the parallel passage in tablet 11 of the Babylonian ‘Gilgamesh Epic’ [c 750 BC] that no doubt exists. The only other Babylonian testimony to these birds is that of the priest Berossus, some 300 BC.’
‘Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus’ can be downloaded gratis here:
https://www.pdfdrive.com/berossus-and-genesis-manetho-and-exodus-hellenistic-histories-and-the-date-of-the-pentateuch-the-library-of-hebrew-bible-old-testament-studies-d160959800.html
The importance of the story of the Flood isn’t whether it was literally true or not, but what it means about sin and redemption. The Sumerians were a closely related Adamic people, and therefore it should surprise no one that they would also have a similar flood story as the Shemites.