Here we present Sheldon Emry’s essay, Where Is Your Soul After Death? which shows how the traditional Catholic and Protestant views of death — including eternal torment in fiery hell — has no basis in Scripture. While it has its origins in the Catholic Church, this unbiblical view of death has also been uncritically accepted by the majority of Protestant denominations — and it is responsible, we believe, for turning away many of our people from not only the Bible — but the actual words of Jesus Christ.
Any Christian doctrine should be judged in its relation to its impact on our understanding of salvation — and since the traditional — and cartoonish — Catholic view on this subject has succeeded in turning many away from Christ — and making a mockery of his sacrifice — it does have enormous when it comes to our salvation.
Our intent here is not to critique merely the Catholic Church on this subject — because many Protestants have remained in lockstep with the same doctrines. Catholics have often defended their ascriptural “traditions” such as their view on death and hell, claiming that Paul alludes to such unwritten traditions in Scripture but are transmitted orally, such as in 2 Thessalonians 2:15…
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
However, this verse cannot be construed a blanket license to follow such traditions that the elders choose — and since we have no way of knowing which “traditions” are alluded to in this verse, we would find ourselves on very shaky ground to assume that our preferred “traditions” are indeed valid with a strong basis in Scripture.
In fact, there are numerous warnings in the New Testament against such oral “traditions” — the Pharisees are repeatedly rebuked for following such traditions. In Galatians 1:11-14, Paul clearly states that the words of Christ found in the gospel take precedent over any such oral “traditions”:
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
With that in mind, we present Sheldon Emry’s examination of these doctrines:
A most common teaching among the Protestant and Catholic churches about the “soul” of man is that it leaves the body at death and goes either to heaven, if the person is “saved,” or to hell, where the “unsaved’ are tormented for eternity. Although there is less “hell-fire” preaching today than in the past, the priests and preachers still insist, when pressed, that “hell” is a place where unsaved “souls” suffer fire and torture for ever and ever, an eternity of indescribable pain without end.
Many people have rejected this idea of a torturing “hell.” Some just ignore it and desire not to discuss it, although they accept the other side of the coin, i.e., the “soul” of the believer going to heaven for eternity if he has “confessed belief in Jesus Christ” while still alive.
Others, in rejecting this teaching of hell, reject the entire Christian religion, saying they cannot trust a God who will torture billions and billions of people forever just because those people, while alive, did not know or did not “confess” Him. So let us examine this “hell,” and search the Scripture to find the Bible Truth on “Where is your Soul after death?”
“SHEOL”
The English word “hell” appears 31 times in the Old Testament and every time it comes from the Hebrew “sheol” (Strong’s #7585) — but “sheol,” is also translated as “grave” 31 times — and as “pit” 3 times. To fully understand what the Bible defines hell as, we must understand what is meant by the Hebrew word “sheol.”
The King James translators of over 400 years ago clearly felt that both hell and grave carried the full meaning of “sheol” This is true when we realize from old English sources that the Anglo-Saxon “helan” or “hell” meant “to cover” or “to hide out of sight.” When farmers put potatoes or other root crops in underground cellars to prevent winter freezing, they called it “helling them” — i.e., putting them into the ground and covering them up. Putting a roof on a new house’ was called “helling.” It was entirely natural for the translators to use either hell or grave for “sheol” since both words meant the same thing.
“Hell” is very simply the “grave.”
Just reading Scripture where the word “sheol” was used will prove it means “grave.” Jacob expected to go to “sheol” when he died (Genesis 37:35; 42:38). Godly Job, in his sorrow, wished that he had died at birth and gone to “sheol” (Job 3:11-19). In those same verses he describes it as a place where “the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest….they hear not the voice of the oppressor” — hardly a place of screams and torture and fire.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 tells us that
“There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest, ” and that “The dead know not any thing” (verses 5 &10).
Psalms 6:5 says, “In death there is no remembrance of thee” — which is similar to Psalms 115:17, “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.” “Sheol” is translated “grave” eight times in the Psalms (6:5; 30:3; 31:17; 49:14,15; 88:3,5; 89:48. Read them).
“GEHENNA”
In the New Testament the Greek word “gehenna” (Strong’s #1067) is translated as “hell” 11 times. It is the name of the burning dump out side of Jerusalem where refuse and dead bodies of criminals were burned. Christ and the others used it as a demonstration of destruction — not of torture. Sinners were NOT tortured there — they had already been put to death for their crime — and then their dead bodies were burned in the dump because it was thought they had lost any right to be buried in a regular grave. It was all over in a few minutes and certainly cannot be compared to being burned alive in a conscious state forever.
Advocates of a tortured existence in a burning hell often use the Sermon on the Mount to “prove” their theology (Matthew 5). Christ does warn of the “danger of hell fire” and of being cast “into hell” in verses 22, 29 and 30. In each case it is the word “gehenna.” However, reading the context, it is easy to see He was telling His listeners not to sin — for if they did, they would be in danger of being cast into “gehenna” — i.e., being put to death as a sinner. This is the same exhortation we read from Peter:
“Let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evil-doer” and “For it is better….that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.”
1 Peter 4:15; 3:17
In very simple words, Christians are not to sin and end up as criminals.
“HADES”
The Greek word “hades” is translated “hell” (Strong’s #86) 10 times in the New Scriptures. In Acts 2, Peter quotes Old Scripture of Christ that God would not leave His “soul in hell [hades],” and therefore, “his soul was not left in hell [hades]” (verses 27 & 31). Any good concordance will show you “hades” means “grave.”
The entire story of Christ overcoming death tells us He died and was put in the grave but did not remain there — but was resurrected. Yet priests and ministers would have us believe that “hades” is a place filled with billions of “souls” in horrible torment which will go on for eternity. Some even tell of Christ going to this place of hellish sights and sounds and releasing the prisoners there and taking some to heaven with Him — and all sorts of weird imagined things which have no basis in Scripture whatever.
In Revelation 20:13 we read of the day of resurrection,
“…and the sea gave up the dead which were in it [still there—not gone somewhere else] and death and hell [hades] delivered up the dead which were in them.”
The margin in most Bibles has a note for “hell” here saying, “or the grave.” The truth is in the Bible — why won’t people see it?
“MOLECH”
God’s own Law prohibits the torture of men in fire. Israel was ordered not to do so in Leviticus 18:21 and 20:1-5 — and God says that such a thing never “came….into my mind” (Jeremiah 19:5). In Jeremiah 32:35 He says burning their sons and daughters in “the fire of Molech” was an “abomination” and caused Judah “to sin.” Yet preachers tell us that God will do that which He prohibits and calls an “abomination.”
These scriptures and many other verses give the lie to the hell of the Dark Ages, which is taught by so many priests and ministers today. Hell is not a place of eternal torture where the damned scream in pain for eternity — rather, it is a place of silence, of rest — a place where its occupants know nothing — a place where righteous Job said he would remain until his Redeemer “shall stand at the latter day upon the earth” (Job 19:25-27)
DEATH
When we understand the Scriptural penalty for sin is simply “death” (Genesis 2:17, Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23 and others), we realize there is no foundation for this idea that the penalty is “everlasting torture.” Christ paid the full penalty for sin so that we might not suffer — what? — everlasting (or, permanent) death — not everlasting torture:
“And sin when it is finished, bringeth forth death” (James 1:15)
Christ “died for our sins” (1 Corinthians 15:3). If the penalty was everlasting torture, would it not follow that Jesus would have had to suffer everlasting torture to pay for our sins? But of course it isn’t — and He didn’t. He paid the Scriptural penalty — death — for “He is the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 2:2).
So we die once and then we are raised to everlasting life in the resurrection. Christ’s death and resurrection set the pattern for all. And our resurrection is not a spirit resurrection at our death but rather is a literal resurrection “at his coming” (1 Corinthians 15:23).
The “everlasting punishment” of Matthew 25:46 and the “everlasting destruction” of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 are very simply death — for God’s Law is “everlasting” (Genesis 9:16; Habakkuk 3:6, et al). Notice in Matthew 25:41 that it is the fire which is everlasting — not necessarily the person’s term of punishment in it.
HEAVEN
In demolishing the “hell” of the Catholic and Protestant churches by the Holy light of the Bible, we find we have also exposed their false teaching that the “saved” dead go immediately to heaven when they die. However, their condition is the same as the unsaved dead — Scripture makes no difference.
That some people go immediately to heaven is an idea taken from pagan religions that the “spirit” of man lives on after death and never dies. Man naturally does not want to die — and this false doctrine gives him hope that he really will not die — that just his physical body will die, but his real “self” will go right on living now in heaven instead of on the earth. But Peter said on the day of Pentecost that David…
“…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day….for David is NOT ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:29, 34).
This was after Christ had ascended, and certainly — if Peter had believed the “saved” dead were in heaven — he would have said that David was “now in heaven.” But of course he was not — he was in the same place all the dead are — in the grave (sheol or hell). They are referred to as “asleep” in 2 Kings 21:17, 18; John 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4; and 1 Corinthians 15:18.
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul wrote of the resurrection of the dead,
“If there be no resurrection of the dead….then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished” (verses 13-18).
Where did Paul believe the “saved” dead were? Why, “fallen asleep” in the grave, of course, where he said, “if there were no resurrection, they are perished.” If the “saved” are all in heaven, as the evangelists preach, we would need no resurrection — and Paul was lying.
Why did our Lord Jesus say of the resurrection day, “All that are in the grave shall hear His voice, and shall come forth” (John 5:28, 29)? How can Jesus call us from the grave if the Catholics and Protestants are right that we will all be in heaven or in torment in hell? Which will you believe — the doctrines of men or God’s Holy Word?
THE SOUL
But some may still say, “Well, all right, so the body remains in the grave, but what about my soul? Can’t it go to heaven without my body?” So, let’s find the scriptural definition of the “soul.”
In the creation of Adam we read that God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man [Adam] became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45). Adam was not given a soul — rather he became a living soul. The word “soul” comes from the Hebrew “nephesh,” (Strong’s #5315) which means a breathing creature, animal, beast, body, breath, man, person, self, etc. (from Strong’s Concordance). It does not mean a conscious entity separate from the body — despite any teachings [or “traditions”] to the contrary.
What man received from God was “the breath of life” — often referred to as the “spirit” in Scripture — from the Hebrew “ruach” (Strong’s #7307) or “neshamah” (Strong’s #5397) — or from the Greek “pneuma” (Strong’s #4151) It means air, breath, wind, power, animation, etc. Animals also have this “breath of life” (Genesis 7:21, 22) — and it is the same as man’s (Ecclesiastes 3:19).
It has no consciousness itself, but it is the power that enables the physical body and mind to function, to think, to act — i.e., to live. The combination of the “breath of life, “the spirit, with the physical body makes “a living soul,” whether man, animal, or other. (This is not the same as the Holy Spirit — that is a different subject.)
When the breath of life is taken from a man, he dies (Psalms 104:29, 30; 146:4; Job 34:14,15), and the breath of life returns to Him who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Being from God, this breath or spirit is indestructible, but the spirit is not the soul. It is not a conscious you — you die — you remain dead until the power of Jesus Christ comes to resurrect you.
That the soul is the living body which can die or be killed is made plain in numerous verses, such as Leviticus 5:1,2; 7:20, 21, 27; Psalms 78:50; and Revelation 16:3. Psalms 89:48 says that man shall die and his “soul” goes to the grave (sheol). Look up “soul” in a good concordance (Strong’s #5590) and follow it through the Bible — and you will see it cannot mean a separate existence apart from the living body. Either “life” or “person” can — usually — be substituted for “soul” and the correct meaning will still be there. Try it and see how clear it is.
OUR REWARD
You may still ask, “But my minister is always telling me that my reward is in heaven (Matthew 5:12). Don’t I have to go to heaven to receive it?”
It is there — all right — if your name is written in “the Book of Life” (Revelation 3:5; 20:12; Malachi 3:16), but if you have to go there to get it, why does Jesus say, “And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12)? All the writers of Scripture contemplated a reward at the end of the age after their resurrection — not at their death.
Some have misunderstood Paul to imply that he would be in the presence of Jesus as soon as he died, but he knew the truth of death and the grave, that “the dead know not any thing.” He knew that at the moment of resurrection, it would be as if he had — the previous moment — “fallen asleep.” The dead are not conscious of the passage of time, be it an hour or a thousand years.
THE GREAT DECEIT
So far you have seen from the meaning of the original words and verses that the doctrine of man’s continuing, conscious existence after death is false. But there is a greater deception here than you perhaps might see upon casual examination.
Turn to Genesis 3 and read the story of the serpent’s deception of Eve — and then of Adam. God had told them not to eat of a certain tree “lest ye die.” But the serpent said to Eve, “Ye shall not surely die….but your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods…” God’s Word tells us today that all shall die and “the wages of sin is death” — i.e., if you disobey, you shall die.
But the false ministers today tell us that only the body dies — and that the “real” us will just “go right to heaven and be with the Lord.” What are they saying? They are saying [exactly what the serpent said to Eve] — “Ye shall not surely die….but your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods (live in heaven).”
If there is any teaching of the Catholic and Protestant churches that creates an “I couldn’t care less” attitude toward the condition of God’s earth and its people, it is this false doctrine that is merely the slightly-altered original deception of our race.
The Gospel of The Kingdom — the true Gospel of the Bible — teaches that men are to be resurrected “on the earth” (Job 19:25; 1 Corinthians 15, etc.) — and shall “reign on earth” (Revelation 5:10) with the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 20:6) — for “the heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the earth hath He given to the children of men” (Psalms 115:16).
This “gospel” that we are all going to heaven as soon as we die is the very opposite of Bible truth. By deceiving men about the true nature of man and death, the ministers keep men’s eyes on a heaven they will never see and help the antiChrists take control over the earth.
The entirely human — [and pagan] — desire to not “surely die” but to go on living in some other form is exploited by them to lead men to believe a lie today — just as Adam and Eve’s desire not to die but to “be as gods” led them to be deceived in their day.
The doctrine that man’s “immortal soul” is in danger of eternal torment unless it is somehow “saved” for heaven by the priests gives that priesthood — through fear — domination over those who have succumbed to the doctrine of immortality.
It was just that fear — that the Roman priests could send a man to eternal torture — that brought all of Europe under the sway of the Roman priesthood in the “Dark Ages.”
Great men of northern Europe broke that power of the Roman priests with the Light of Bible Truth — that man is mortal and cannot be sentenced to eternal torment by the priests — nor can priests reward him with eternal bliss for obeying them. These great men of the Protestant Reformation taught the truth of man’s state after death — that his resurrection to life was his great hope — and that it was entirely in the power of a merciful Jesus Christ.
Martin Luther wrote:
“Now, if one should say that Abraham’s soul lives with God, but his body is dead, this distinction is rubbish. I will attack it. One must say, ‘The whole Abraham, the whole man shall live.’ The other way you tear off a part of Abraham and say. ‘It lives.’ This is the way the philosophers speak: ‘Afterward the soul departed from its domicile,’ etc. That would be a silly soul if it were in heaven and desired its body!”
–from Luther’s “Works,” Vol. 54, p. 447
Here is William Tyndale:
“The true faith putteth (teaches) the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put (teach) that the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of the philosophers together….therefore he corrupteth the Scripture….And again, if the souls be in heaven….what cause is there of the resurrection?”
–from An Answer to Sir Thomas More’s Dialogue, Book 4, Ch 2, pp 188, 189
As you can now see, the doctrine of immortality now taught in most Protestant churches is actually the false teaching of the pagans and of the Roman Catholic Church. God’s people have again come under bondage to false priests. Only the truth can again set them free.
One final thought — especially since so many modern ministers answer the claims of the Old Testament that man is mortal and does not suffer eternal torment by saying: “Yes, we realize the Old Testament does not teach immortality and eternal torment, but that was not revealed to the Patriarchs and the Prophets; it was revealed only after Christ.” They are saying that all the heathen philosophers and pagan priests had the “truth of immortality” and that God not only hid the “truth” from His own Holy Prophets, but had them write lies in His Holy Word.
Their explanation — their doctrine — makes God a liar and deceiver. They are further saying that “eternal torture” as punishment for breaking God’s Law was not revealed when God gave the Law itself — but rather was withheld and revealed in all its terror only in the “age of grace” in “the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.” What blasphemy they utter against the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
No, God did not lie — either in the Old Testament or in the New. His entire Word is true, and may this article bring many readers out of heathen darkness and pagan philosophy into the Light of God’s Truth and set them free from the false priests of darkness.
This is a personal question for CFT. So if someone commits Abduction, Assault, Rape, Murder, Child or, Animal abuse they basically in a way DON’T have to face punishments for the sickening crimes they done besides not being Resurrected? 🤔
Even if it was just a short time of torture for the sake of actual justice.There should be somewhat of certain laws of PHYSICAL penalties and then having the Soul/Consciousness destroyed.
On spiritual matters i go by experience have any of you experienced something out of the ordinary not just once , years back i would get knocks on the door but each time no one was there until one day i was sitting down on a sofa as the other seats were taken i had full view of the path to my door so to my amazement i saw this person appear out of nowhere walk up my path knock the door you guessed it when i answered no one there , when i was visiting my sisters friends house to collect charity sponsorship funds a pair of heavy boots leapt off the chair and floated down the corridor and landed quite gently so who or what could of done that like the many objects that have vanished from my house never to be seen again i told my mum about it at first she dismissed it but changed her mind when a brolly cover she put on the arm of the sofa began to slowly vanish fading into nothing my mum saw it happen and i said you see what i have been telling you its been happening many times like when i told my nephew and his friend about an old toy blaster gun i still had that i said they could have a go of as it had no batteries i had to find some my nephew and his friend went out before that i said when you get back you can have a go so i unscrewed the battery cover put it in my pocket then put the toy on the table when i got back it was gone all i had left was the battery cover .
Other strange cases was when i heard my dad call me into the living room but he was not there he was still out another time my mum came to the living room because i called her there when i was upstairs in my room watching tv another time i heard my brothers voice even though he lives somewhere else so what kind of thing can imitate the voices of living relatives , other more stranger things is was when i was alone in the living room some black mist started to form it got bigger started floating above the room it seemed to have a life of its own as it got close to me something happened for it to leave.
I have heard voices in my house and no i am not crazy , one day i was listening to music and i could hear a womans voice humming to the music , in a particular room a brand new light bulb went pop in one year i went through an entire pack of light bulbs so my dad checked the electrics everything was fine , one night this foul stench appeared my dad thought it was dodgy pipes we had them checked nothing wrong with them , sometimes i would notice smouldering smells appear out of nowhere but there had been no fire in the fire place.
I have had dreams were familiar people visited me like my friend who came to me in my dream to say good bye then i heard from my mum he died in a car crash , i had the strangest dream it was like i came to the door and i was welcoming people and one of them was fallen libyan leader gadaffi then the people in the room some look like they are dressed from biblical times got up and started to point at me , gadaffi helped the people of ireland , years ago at night i would feel terrified in my own bedroom feeling something is there hearing a murmmer a growl
Also one night i saw a shadow person i am telling it as i remember it , a story from my mum relating to a member of family i never saw she said this member of the family saw another member coming from the beach going up to the house walked up to the door and past her she later found out that he died at sea , experiences can change your perspective .
As for hell is there any proof of its existence or is it just some form of psychological control thats been added like those that create a mythical creature saying its out to get you if you stray from the path . Other experiences include seeing a ball of light come into my room so what was it also like when i came downstairs at night in the livingroom there was a speck of blue energy that increased in size followed by strange distortion some who i have told about this said i am making it up and other nonsense . i thought i would share some of my own experiences
Is eternal life denied to a White man if he commits a crime against a non-White?
Like for example are the Spanish conquerors, who spread the Faith to America, in Heaven even if they raped and tortured needlessy the amerindians?
Murder is strictly forbidden in the Bible even against non-Adamic peoples. We are even forbidden to abuse animals — in case, as some think, that some people are not “human” per se which I don’t ascribe to.
Only in self-defense would killing be justified. Rape is never justified even against a non-white, as any form of race mixing and lust for alien women is forbidden.
Jews believe it’s okay to kill non-Jews whom they consider to be animals, but we should never accept that form of talmudic thinking.
Hey Brett……………
I appreciate you answering the obvious. I read that comment and thought to myself — “…why on earth would anyone even ask that question?”
Anyway ……………… you said something interesting ……………………..
Do you believe all the races of the earth (White, black, yellow, red) come from Adam and Eve and or Noah and his family?
I’m always curious what other people believe and “why”.
I was taught to believe that — that all races come from Adam and Eve. Well actually I wasn’t “taught” that. It was just stated as fact and no one ever explained how it was possible.
Maybe if you believe that you have a logical explanation.
Thanks!
West,
I believe white people are from Adam, and non-whites are non-adamic or pre-adamic. I don’t get into semantic arguments about whether or not we should call non-adamics “people” or “humans”. I think to do so hurts our cause, and turns potential allies away.
The Bible isn’t clear about the origins of the pre-adamics, so I don’t try to speculate too much about them, but archeology shows they were here long before Adam’s line.
Brett….
Excellent. Thank you.
This is basically Universalism’s theology. But you just published an article disparaging Universalism.
How does Emry’s essay promote universalism? You say it as if it’s self-evident.
If you’ve ever read Emry’s extensive work, you’d know he’s completely against universalism.
You made the claim, so where is your evidence that he’s promoting universalism here? Or should we just take your word for it?
Every point about hell, heaven, eternity, etc are Universalist themes. If the man cannot make the connection, he is actively ignoring the obvious. Same for you.
I do not believe in the “sinners burn in the eternal fires of hell” train of thought. I believe that when we die we fall asleep and awaken for judgment from God and from then it’s kingdom on earth or lake of fire where people just cease to exist.
So, serious question for everyone: where do ghosts come from? The witch at Endor rose Samuel! If our souls are asleep too when we die, then what are ghosts if not disembodied souls?
“…I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.”
Mark 12:26-27
Jesus spokes with Moses and Elijah. They were not ‘asleep.’
“And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.”
Matthew 17:1-5
The Saints serve God day and night. They are not ‘asleep.’
“And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he, that sitteth on the throne, shall dwell over them.”
Apocalypse (Revelation) 7:14-15
A soul that is ‘sleeping’ or ‘dead,’ cannot cry out to God for vengeance.
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain [their bodies only] for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”
Apocalypse 6:9-10
Al:It’s strange that you would quote Revelation considering that takes place in the future.
Just because Moses and Elijah are with God doesn’t mean that everyone who ever died is with Him. They are the exception to the rule. So many other passages refer to people being asleep “with their fathers”.
Matthew 7 refers to those who “came out of the tribulation”, but the great tribulation hasn’t happened yet, so this is a future vision.
Both Moses and Elijah had bodily peculiarities. Elijah was taken up and Jude 1.9 says the Archangel disputed with the devil over the body of Moses. What happened to his body is not said. We know he was buried but whether he ascended we may only speculate.
I would be troubled saying these two examples can be used to demonstrate we all live on after death and are not in the grave. They are exceptional in their lives on earth and departures. Perhaps this is why they were chosen to be present at the transfiguration. In the end only Jesus remained.
Good point, Bee. Also, earlier in Jude 1:6, we read, “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
All too often, people read this verse and take the language literally, which I believe is a mistake. The internlinear literal translation mentions nothing about “chains”, but simply “bonds”. The “darkness” doesn’t necessarily mean “hell” or “purgatory” here either.
So literally, we see that they are merely “bound” in “gloom” until the Judgment Day, which is best read conservatively as simply being bound in “sheol” or in the grave until until the Judgment.
https://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/jud1.pdf
I think they are the fallen angels who followed lucifer in his rebellion against God.
After being defeated, they were sent on earth, waiting for their final destruction.
Ghosts must be these fallen angels who, for whatever reason, did not find a human body, a broken vessel,to use as a shell and take complete control of it.
“But if you say, “Yahweh’s burden”, then Yahweh says this, “Since you use the expression ‘Yahweh’s
burden’, when I have warned you to stop saying, ‘Yahweh’s burden’, believe me, I shall pick you up and fling you from my presence, you and the city I gave to you and to your ancestors. I shall bring down everlasting shame on you, everlasting and unforgettable disgrace.” ‘ Jeremiah 23:38-40
“ ‘Of those who are sleeping in the Land of Dust, many will awaken, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting disgrace.” Daniel 12:2-2
“ And on their way out they will see the corpses of those who rebelled against me; for their worm will never die nor their fire be put out, and they will be held in horror by all humanity.” Isaiah 66:24-24
Echoed in The New Testament:
“ And if your eye should be your downfall, tear it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell Mar 9:48 where their worm will never die nor their fire be put out.” Mark 9:47-47
Jesus to the repentant thief on the cross:
“TODAY, you will be with me in paradise.”
Might want to take another view at the whole concept of:
http://biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/life-death-and-the-afterlife/
I guess you didn’t read Emry’s essay very carefully. He said that in the grave time stops, and when Christ returns and resurrects the dead, it will be as if no time had passed at all. Even the passing of 2,000 years will be as if it’s a blink of an eye. To the resurrected dead, it will seem as if they will be in paradise right after death.
You mean Emry put his own spin on it.
I clicked on the biblicism link above and there was this:
“They [Christians] came to life [in heaven] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead [non-Christians] did not come to life until the thousand years were completed…The dead [non-Christians] were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books… Anyone whose name was not found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life [Jesus’s Book of Life] was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:4,5,12,15
[ ] Biblicism explanation
Makes sense to me.
While we’re on the subject, is that 1,000 years, the Millennium Kingdom, a literal period of time?
Are those 1,000 years each the 365.25 years we’re familiar with?
Doug Ryler, you have promoted the biblicisminstitute website before, and you’ve been shown the problems with some of the material they promote such as the demonstrably false idea that the Israelites and dead and gone and no longer exist:
http://biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/a-brief-history-of-the-kingdoms-of-israel-and-judah/
This same website also promotes Christian universalism which is completely contradicted by scripture, as Charles Weisman proves in his book “Is Universalism of God?”
Both of these ideas are proven false by Jeremiah 31:31which clearly states that the New Covenant will be with the same people as the original covenant: Israelites. That means that Christ came for Israelites, which He confirmed in Matthew 15:24, “I came not but for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.” If the Israelites are gone from history, then Christ is a liar, and the Revelation is a hoax.
Jeremiah 31:31….
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This is correct, Jas, Jesus Christ came to regather Israel. In fact, there are a multitude of verses from the Bible attesting to the fact that all of Israel would be regathered. If Israel was “lost to history” as many misguided Christian universalists believe, then God is mistaken, because He clearly said Israel would be regathered. And this is not just in the Old Testament.
Hebrews 8:8 echos Jeremiah 31:31….
“Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah”
Hebrews 8:10
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”
Matthew alludes to the regathering of the 12 tribes of Israel:
“So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'” (Matthew 19:28)
And Luke:
“Luke 22:30
“…that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'”
In the OT:
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Gathering-Israel
Bear: Sounds like a lot of metaphorical language that you seem to take literally. Hard to understand the Bible when you take it all literally. Hard to argue that it doesn’t use a lot of poetic language, but sadly all to many Christians feel some sort of misguided moral obligation to take every word literally, which is how the false teaching of the “Rapture” took hold, for example.
McManus. If you do not take the Bible literally, then better not take it AT ALL.
“The Hell Hoax”
“Another shocking fact comes to light after checking to see how the Hebrew and Greek words were translated in the King James Version of the Bible. Not only are “sheol” and “hades” translated Hell, but also they are translated the GRAVE. Many who are ignorant of this fact they will argue that there is a difference between hell and the grave when in reality the Bible uses only one word “sheol” (Hebrew – Old Testament) or “hades” (Greek – New Testament) which are translated 2 different ways. In order to avoid this pseudo difference and have clarity only “sheol” and “hades” will be used in this message when quoting scriptures.” ….
https://www.truthfromgod.com/now_articles/the_hell_hoax.html
——->>
“All Souls Die”
“This short statement will raise the immediate ire of over one-third of the world’s population, and it goes by the name of Christian. According to Church canon “Souls are to be saved so that they can go to heaven and escape the fiery furnace of an eternal hell.” Whether Christianites or not, nearly everyone in all white western nations is familiar with this concept which Christianism claims is taught in the Bible, but nothing could be further from the truth for there is not one verse that backs up their bogus doctrine. It is only in denominational dogma that “soul” is given the twisted connotation of being sacred.” ….
https://www.truthfromgod.com/now_articles/all_souls_die.html
——->>
“The Source Of Delusion”
“…. He NEVER charged a single penny or asked for any donations. YAHWASUA was never too busy, and even took time for little children. He was not selling truth or making merchandise of revelation. Such is NOT the case in any form of Christianity. No opportunity is missed to take an offering, sell books, audios, videos, and ask for financial support. Even in the age of the internet their websites are nothing more than infomercials promoting all kinds of TRUTH that you must purchase from them, and just in case you don’t buy anything there is always the DONATE button jumping off the page at you. Money is the KEY to their “ministries” and they never miss an opportunity to get some more of it. Maybe the reason they are so busy is that they are standing at the cash register checking everyone out and saying “Thank you, come again, REAL SOON.”
Can you imagine if these purveyors of knowledge had any power what they would charge for a healing? What would be their rate for restoration of sight? How much would they charge cripples to make them whole? What about their fee for raising the dead?” ….
https://www.truthfromgod.com/now_articles/the_source_of_delusion.html
What the author of this article is saying is totally untrue.
Here below are a few biblical quotes that affirm that the hell and its eternal life is biblical:
MATTHEW 25:46 KJV
1 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:41 ESV /
2 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Romans 6:23 ESV /
3 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Revelation 21:8 ESV /
4 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
But is the “lake of fire” literally a burning hell? I never have taken it literally.
How can the language of what happens after death in the Bible not be metaphorical rather than literal?
Do you not believe that being denied eternal life isn’t a terrible punishment for the wicked?
Imaging standing before God and finding out that you will be denied salvation and eternal life. That, to me, is what it means to be cast into the “lake of fire” whatever that may amount to.
That is every Christian hope and fear….the wicked do not fear God and His judgment, and do not fear being deprived of eternal life, but every knee shall bow, and know in that moment what their fate is….
Are they cast out into eternal darkness after judgement? Would that suffice for a punishment?
We must trust God that His punishment is equal to each transgression, no matter what He chooses for the wicked.
That punishment need not be a Catholic-style “burning” in hell, no?
The author you responded to in no way suggested that the punishment was or had to be “Catholic eternal fire”
Again, it is as if you arguing an entirely different conversation than the ones you respond to. Taking words out of context to fight a strawman of your own construction. I believe you are here to disrupt as this is a classic forum control technique.
Authors point stands. You havent made an argument.
Nadir Martello. Right on.
Part 2 to my comment:
What about the shaboz goy intelligence agency spooks who have infilitrated our news media and have actively LIED TO and DECIEVED our population for the past 100 years???
Can you stop and imagine the number of Gods children who have been hopelessly led astray because of these spooks?? We are talking WORLD WARS and incalculable bloodshed all urged on and indeed made possible because of the activities of spooks, jewish or otherwise.
The FBI alone has done more to protect child trafficking rings and cover up for them. These children are abducted, pumped full of drugs, turned into unholy sex addicts and often murdered when they are done with them.
You think these people are just going to be allowed to “Fall asleep?”
There is nothing new under the sun, either. What you see going on today, happened in the time of prophets and apostles. You better believe these motherfu*#ers are going to pay one hell of a price for their treachery.
It sounds like you fear God will not mete out the proper punishment for the wicked.
Do you not trust God that He knows what to do with the wicked?
Is there no other punishment besides a “fiery hell” that would satisfy your limited imagination?
Can you not concede that this “fiery hell” is merely a metaphor for what the actual punishment is?
Faith in God means in part that we trust Him to bring down the mighty and raise the meek.
How He does that cannot be communicated to our small minds except in banal metaphors of fire.
Those who get caught up trying to understand the words of the Bible literally will always fail to see the bigger picture.
It isn’t about how the wicked are punished. It’s the fact that they will be.
They wicked will stand before God and be judged. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
IT sounds like you need to work on reading comprehension as I am saying the exact opposite. I know full well God has something real special for these people, and it aint a comfy naptime after physical death.
I could list scriptures, commentary and apocryphal scriptures all day to support my claims. Try harder.
You guys are forgetting some OTHER parts of scripture that make this issue more complex.
I agree on the mistranslations for gehenna and hades etc… I also long ago abandoned the catholic conception of hell.
However, disembodied spirits on both the good and bad side are a reality spoken of in the bible. Something is plainly lost in translation, indeed probably intentionally garbled up beyond recognition or removed entirely.
Yahshua commands the evil spirits (who were legion aka many inhabiting one body) to leave the man and they REQUESTED of him to be sent into pigs. The pigs then ran and jumped off of a cliff.
In another area of scripture the jewish canaanite witch of endor summons up Samuel from the dead, however briefly.
The words Devil and Ape have similar meanings, which you can read about in Adam Clarks commentary, which may also offer an explanation for the phraseabout the fallen angels being “reserved in chains of darkness”, aka confined to half animal half human black skinned creatures. Perhaps the ones we have to suffer living amongst us known for so much violence and cannibalism. This is a big subject all by itself.
Satan and his demons bound here are said to go “to and fro” in the earth seeking men they can devour.
Sheldon Emry was decent but missed a lot in his writings. I do believe this subject is far more complex than you guys realize, though I agree the classical interpretation of “hell” being a firey torture chamber is unscriptural.
Our father is very righteous. What do you suppose he has reserved for the jewish children of satan who throughout time have abducted and ritually tortured little boys to death, poking holes in their flesh slowly, then drinking their blood??? Eye for an eye??? What about the fact that millions of souls have been led astray and into horrible idolatry and the same ritual sacrifice, all because of the efforts of these jews??? how do you calculate what kind of punishment is worthy for these heinous crimes????
Exceptionally wicked people can expect terrible unimaginable vengeance at the hands of our father. He will not let this go unpunished. I think you all should think twice on this position as there is clearly more to the story than just looking up a few words in strongs concordance.
Whispering firmly to the dying man, the priest said,
“Denounce the devil! Let him know how little you think of his evil!”
The dying man said nothing.
The priest repeated his order.
Still the dying man said nothing.
The priest asked, “Why do you refuse to denounce the devil and his evil?”
The dying man said, “Until I know where I’m heading, I don’t think I ought to aggravate anybody.”
So you are suggesting that “the devil” has the ability to punish those “in hell”? Really? Where does it say that in scripture? I must have missed that one. Priests have gotten very fat off promoting the ideas of “the devil” and “hell”. Maybe that’s why people believe in them so much.
Hmmmm… gonna hafta think about this ; pretty sure I cant agree with it all. We have too many instances in the Bible indicating a literal ‘hell’ and a literal ‘heavenly rest – see Lazarus and the rich man, Enoch being taken up, Jesus saying that His fathers house has many rooms etc etc.
Now, I can agree that except in some rare cases – Enoch comes to mind and Lazarus hanging out with Abraham – it does appear that the soul simply sleeps until the Resurrection ; no where in the Bible does it state that our soul/essence/person/whatever word you want to use and we’ll not argue that here, immediately ascends or descends. No issue there.
But there not only seems to be eternal punishment/reward to those WITH a soul in Scripture, but reason demands it. Just ‘sleeping’ – i.e. unconsciousness/nonexistence isnt really any detriment to bad behaviour and might not be that bad. I would also argue that immortality is indeed indicated in the ‘Old Testament’.
Having said that though, the ‘doctrines’ of catholicism are obviously false and not rooted in Scripture; Dante was literature, not Holy Writ. Scripture is indeed clear that no man can save another and that once one dies, the die is cast and no repentance available. It is also clear that there will be a ‘final judgement’ and the Sheep will be separated from the goats and some will go to eternal paradise and others won’t. Exactly where that is/those are, we dont know, but the concept seems clear.
Emry doesn’t directly address what happens at the final judgment. Nor does he address the difference between Adamic and non-Adamics at the final judgment. These are issues that are not clearly addressed in scripture.
It seems the Emry is mostly concerned with dispelling the traditional notions of hell here. But just because there isn’t a literal “hell” doesn’t mean that Emry is claiming that there is not punishment for unrepentant sinners. It would take a much longer essay to deal with all these issues.