In our previous essay, What Is The Mark Of The Beast — And What Is It Not?, we stated that Revelation 4 – 11, Revelation 12 – 14 and Revelation 15 – 19 essentially cover the same time period from different angles. As such, we also alluded to a period of time between when the 144,000 have been sealed in Revelation 7:4, Revelation 14:1 and Revelation 15:2 — and when the Lord Jesus returns.
In this article we would like to cover one of the key events during that time — the fall of Mystery Babylon — as well as the part which the elect of God need to play in that event.
THE BURNING MOUNTAIN
Just prior to the 144,000 being sealed, Revelation 7:3 says,
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God; and he called out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Directly afterward, the 144,000 are sealed in Revelation 7:4. Then subsequently, “a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up” (Revelation 8:7), and “a third of the sea became blood” (Revelation 8:8). If “the bond-servants of our God” (Revelation 7:3) have to be sealed before the earth, sea or trees may be harmed — and if the earth, trees and sea were damaged according to Revelation 8:7-8 — then “the bond-servants of our God” have definitely been sealed by as early as Revelation 8:7.
Yet when the sea is harmed, Revelation 8:8 says,
The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood
As we have mentioned numerous times in prior essays, if a literal mountain — or asteroid as some Christians believe — fell into the sea, then the world would quite obviously be able to identify the events of the Revelation. But the events of the Revelation must pass by unnoticed — except by the elect — otherwise, how else would the Lord Jesus come like a thief when He returns? (Revelation 16:15)
Thankfully however, even when taking a metaphorical interpretation, the Scripture provides us with plenty of clues. Jeremiah 51:24-25 says,
24 “But I will repay Babylon and all the inhabitants of Chaldea for all their evil that they have done in Zion before your eyes,” declares the Lord. 25 “Behold, I am against you, mountain of destruction that destroys the whole earth,” declares the Lord, “And I will stretch out my hand against you, and roll you down from the rocky cliffs, and I will make you a burnt out mountain. 26 They will not take from you even a stone for a corner Nor a stone for foundations, but you will be desolate forever,” declares the Lord.
We see that Jeremiah 51 compares the destruction of Babylon with a “burnt out mount” which will be rolled “down from the rocky cliffs.” Revelation 17:16 says of Mystery Babylon (Revelation 17:5),
And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.
Jeremiah tells us Babylon will be burned (Jeremiah 51:25) and desolate (Jeremiah 51:26) — whereas Revelation 17:16 tells us the exact same thing must happen to mystery Babylon — or the whore of Babylon. Later, Jeremiah 51:63-64 — in the same pronouncement as verses 24-25 concerning the “burnt out mountain” — says,
63 And as soon as you finish reading this scroll, you shall tie a stone to it and throw it into the middle of the Euphrates, 64 and say, ‘Just so shall Babylon sink down and not rise again, because of the disaster that I am going to bring upon her; and they will become exhausted.’
Finally, Revelation 18:21 echoes the same,
Then a strong angel picked up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will never be found again.”
When we connect these verses, we can see that when “a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea” (Revelation 8:8), there can be no mistaking what it is referring to — the fall of Mystery Babylon. Moreover, we can see that these events are not literal — while the Scripture provides us with plenty of information to conclude what the metaphorical interpretation must be.
THE DAY OF ATONEMENT
It just so happens the Lord Jesus says in Mark 11:23-24,
23 Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted to him. 24 Therefore, I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted to you.
A few verses prior to mystery Babylon — the burning mountain — being cast into the sea in Revelation 8:8, Revelation 8:3-5 says,
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense ascended from the angel’s hand with the prayers of the saints before God. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder and sounds, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
Therefore, whoever are alive among the true believers in the Lord Jesus will literally pray and ask for Babylon to fall — and the Lord Jesus assures us that their prayers will be answered — and it will fall.
Revelation 8:3-5 also gives us some very specific imagery from the Law. After Korah’s rebellion — where the earth opened up and swallowed those who defied Moses and Aaron’s authority — Numbers 16:43-48 says,
43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 45 “Get away from among this congregation so that I may consume them instantly.” Then they fell on their faces. 46 And Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put fire in it from the altar, and place incense on it; then bring it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone out from the Lord, the plague has begun!” 47 Then Aaron took it just as Moses had spoken, and he ran into the midst of the assembly; and behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people. 48 And he took his stand between the dead and the living, so that the plague was brought to a halt.
We can see that were it not for the atonement conducted by the high priest, all Israel would have been destroyed in a moment. Moreover, Leviticus 16:12-13 provides more specific ordinances for the high priests,
12 He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil. 13 He shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, so that the cloud of incense may cover the atoning cover that is on the ark of the testimony, otherwise he will die.
When we look at these verses through Revelation 8:3-5, we can see that the laws concerning the day of atonement always represented the final and great atonement for Israel — much like the Passover represented the work which the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross (1 Corinthians 5:7).
The cloud of incense represents the prayers of the saints which would be necessary to bring about Israel’s atonement — along with the fall of Babylon. Furthermore, after teaching on prayer, the Lord says in Luke 18:7-8,
7 now, will God not bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night, and will He delay long for them? 8 I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
We can conclude by these words that the fall of Mystery Babylon also constitutes justice for the elect — and again, the elect must “cry out to Him day and night” in prayer.
Earlier we saw that “the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea” (Revelation 7:2) were commanded not to hurt the earth or the sea until the 144,000 were sealed (Revelation 7:3). Then in Revelation 8:7-8 they did hurt the earth and the sea after the 144,000 were sealed. Now Ezekiel 9:4-5 says,
3 Then the glory of the God of Israel ascended from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose waist was the scribe’s kit. 4 And the Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and make a mark on the foreheads of the people who groan and sigh over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” 5 But to the others He said in my presence, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. 6 Utterly kill old men, young men, female virgins, little children, and women, but do not touch any person on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.”
Directly after this scene — within the same vision, Ezekiel 10:2 says,
And He spoke to the man clothed in linen and said, “Enter between the whirling wheels under the cherubim and fill your hands with coals of fire from between the cherubim, and scatter them over the city.” And he entered in my sight.
Now dressing in linen was something the high priest had to do when conducting the Day of Atonement ceremony (Leviticus 16:4). Moreover, we see this imagery describing the Lord Jesus in Daniel 10:5. It was the high priest’s duty to fulfill the Day of Atonement, but in the Spirit of the Law, the Lord Jesus is our perfect and immortal high priest (Hebrews 7:28).
Therefore, we conclude that the “angel ascending from the rising of the sun, holding the seal of the living God” (Revelation 7:2) and the angel who conducted the ceremony in Revelation 8 are one and the same — just as the man dressed in linen who did each of these acts in Ezekiel 9 and 10 were one and the same individual — and it all refers to the Lord Jesus Himself. It’s no wonder — because the Lord tells us the Scriptures testify about Himself (John 5:39).
As we already covered in our essay on Romans 11, Revelation 7 describes the fulfillment of Israel. Thus by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, we have built a rich picture of what is happening during Revelation 7 and 8.
When Israel is fulfilled by the fullness of the nations (Revelation 7:9) — and the 144,000 are sealed (Revelation 7:4) — we see the heavenly fulfillment of the Day of Atonement. We can see in the imagery of Numbers 16:43-48 that this atonement will stop God’s wrath against Israel — but when we look at Ezekiel 9-10, we see that only the ones with the seal on their heads will survive that wrath.
Paul likens the people of his own time to those in Korah’s rebellion (2 Timothy 3:9) in 2 Timothy 3:1-5,
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness although they have denied its power; avoid such people as these.
Therefore, we must be careful — exercising the deepest levels of introspection — that we do not become like those of Korah’s rebellion — and do not fall into the trap of thinking we are right in our own eyes. Otherwise, when the true Israel has been atoned for, we will find ourselves on the wrong end of Lord Jesus’ wrath — because He says to His servants in Luke 19:27,
But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.
We must all pay careful attention to the circumstances before the fall of Babylon and the Lord Jesus’ return — lest we find ourselves under Amos’s admonishment in Amos 5:18,
Woe to you who are longing for the day of the Lord, for what purpose will the day of the Lord be to you? It will be darkness and not light;
THE LORD’S GENEROSITY
Proverbs 16:13-15 says,
13 Righteous lips are the delight of kings, and one who speaks right is loved. 14 The fury of a king is like messengers of death; but a wise person will appease it. 15 In the light of a king’s face is life, and his favor is like a cloud with the spring rain.
We have already discussed the fury of the King — and the urgency with which we must appease Him — but let us discuss His delight, His love, His favor and the light and life of His face. After all, just prior to Luke 19:27 — where He calls for His enemies to be slain — verse 26 says,
I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
In our essay, Are We In The End Times?, we covered how the seven seals represent — and build up to — this very sequence of events — the atonement of Israel — and that the wrath against Israel during the great tribulation produces the body of Christ. This process may be summarized by Peter’s words in 1 Peter 4:17,
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Revelation 8 marks the end of the judgment of the household of God and the beginning of the judgment against those who do not obey the gospel of God. However, when the Revelation refers to the actual acts of those who have just received the mark of God during the time of God’s wrath against those who do not obey the gospel — after Israel’s atonement — it never numbers those who receive the mark of God.
Revelation 8:3 merely says, “the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.” Revelation 9:4 refers to “only the people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.” Revelation 15:2 says, “those who were victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name” — meaning those who did not take the mark of the beast by taking the mark of God (Revelation 7:4).
Moreover, if the 144,000 represents all Israelites who would be saved (Revelation 7:4, Revelation 21:17) — and if Israelites such as Moses and Elijah will obviously be saved — then we couldn’t conclude that all of the 144,000 must be alive simultaneously in any case. However, we could absolutely conclude that Israelites from ancient times such as Moses and Elijah would have the mark of God upon their heads — and thus be a part of the 144,000.
In other words, since the time when Israel became a nation under Jacob, chosen Israelites (Romans 11:7) — the remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10:22) — have been continuously added to that 144,000 number. In Revelation 8, when the heavenly fulfillment of Israel’s atonement comes, the final number of chosen Israelites will have been added to the 144,000.
Moses and Elijah — as well as David, Samuel, Isaiah, Daniel and many others — must necessarily be a part of that number already because they are Israelites who are saints — or “holy ones.” However, when the end of the end comes, there will be a certain group of Israelites who will have just recently been sealed at the time of Revelation 7:4.
Therefore, we find the wording of the Revelation very careful not to imply that everyone from the 144,000 needs to be alive at the same time even while describing the whole of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1. The 144,000 are “the first fruits to God” (Revelation 14:4) — and “Israel was holy to the Lord, the first of His harvest” (Jeremiah 2:3) — and James says to “the twelve tribes” (James 1:1) that they are “a kind of first fruits among His creatures.” (James 1:18)
If Israel are the first fruits (Jeremiah 2:3, James 1:18) — and if the 144,000 are the first fruits (Revelation 14:4) — and if the 144,000 are Israelites (Revelation 7:4) — then how could there be any Israelite outside of the 144,000? They would not be first fruits because only the 144,000 are the first fruits — and there is no Israelite who is not a first fruit. Thus the Revelation also makes very clear to us the 144,000 must represent Israel across all time.
To reconcile these ideas — as befits the wording of the Revelation — all of the 144,000 who are alive in mortal bodies during the time of Israel’s atonement in Revelation 8 would merely be a subset of that 144,000. We specifically say “alive in mortal bodies” because Moses and Elijah are definitely alive and serving the Kingdom of God as we speak (Luke 9:30-31).
Moreover, we are told that even more Israelites besides Moses and Elijah have already been resurrected — when the Lord Jesus gave up His spirit on the cross, “the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (Matthew 27:52). Now the passage says “many bodies of the saints,” which could mean one of two things:
- All of the saints were raised — and there were many of them
- Not all of the saints were raised — but there were many which were raised
To this end, let us consider the parable of the laborers in the vineyard in Matthew 20:1-16,
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace; 4 and to those he said, ‘You go into the vineyard also, and whatever is right, I will give you.’ And so they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
8 “Now when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, starting with the last group to the first.’ 9 When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. 10 And so when those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day’s work and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go; but I want to give to this last person the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I want with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ 16 So the last shall be first, and the first, last.”
Now consider that Elijah has been alive since he was taken up (2 Kings 2:11). We have reason to believe that given Moses’ presence at the Lord Jesus’ transfiguration (Luke 9:30) — and that Michael the archangel sought to claim his body sometime before that (Jude 1:9) — that Moses was raised sometime between his own death and the time of the transfiguration.
As we have explained in Romans 7 & 8 (Part 2) and What Are The Signs Of The End Times? — and as the Lord Jesus’ words suggest in Matthew 22:30 — we become the same kind of heavenly creature that the angels are when we are raised. Therefore, Moses and Elijah are angels now. Yet as Luke 9:31 suggests in Moses’ and Elijah’s case — and as Hebrews 1:14 tells us outright of all angels — their purpose is to serve those who will inherit salvation. In other words, they are working for those who will inherit salvation.
With the above in mind, by the time the Lord Jesus returns to bring His Kingdom, Moses and Elijah will have already been working for a very long time. By comparison, those who are alive in mortal bodies at the time of the Lord Jesus’ return will have been working for a comparatively short time.
Furthermore, Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Paul refers to two groups — “the dead in Christ” and those “who are alive, who remain” — who will “meet the Lord in the air” at the time when He returns. Here we find a special resurrection for all who have died “in Christ” — that is, those who have died since the Lord Jesus was revealed as the Christ — or Messiah — of Israel. Those who are “in Christ” — but are alive when He returns — will merely be taken up without ever having died in the first place.
Now Paul himself — along with Peter and the rest of the apostles — have died “in Christ,” meaning that until the point of the Lord Jesus return they will have worked only for the period of their mortal lives on earth. In other words, they are currently unconscious and resting — waiting for their resurrection at the return of the Lord Jesus.
Thus Moses and Elijah have been working for quite a long time compared to the likes of Peter, Paul or John. Then what about the likes of Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) — or the rest of the sons of God who during their mortal lives were the cherubim before the flood — who themselves have also been raised? They have been working for longer than anyone — Israel included.
Therefore, everyone who has died since the time of Christ — who have not yet been resurrected — including the subset of the 144,000 who are alive during the time of Israelites heavenly atonement — would represent the servants who were hired in the eleventh hour in the aforementioned parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:12).
On the other hand, perhaps Moses and Elijah were hired during “the sixth hour” (Matthew 20:5) — whereas others resurrected at the time of the Lord’s death (Matthew 27:52) were hired during “the ninth hour” (Matthew 20:5). Perhaps Enoch and the antediluvian sons of God were hired during “the third hour” (Matthew 20:3). The Lord Jesus, on the other hand, is the only one apart from His Father who has been working since the very beginning (John 1:2-3, John 5:17).
Now when the Lord Jesus returns, He tells us that “He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds” (Matthew 24:31). This is the heavenly fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:4 which says,
If any of your scattered countrymen are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
Likewise, Isaiah 27:12-13 says,
12 On that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing stream of the Euphrates River to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, you sons of Israel. 13 It will come about also on that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
As we have already discussed in our essay on the mark of the beast, the threshing and the harvest is the second coming of the Lord Jesus. Here we see the threshing of the harvest, the gathering of the sons of Israel, and the great trumpet being blown all connected into one event — aligning exactly with the Lord’s words in Matthew 24:31. In other words, when He returns He will regather Israel.
Moreover, as we detailed in our article on the sons of God in Genesis 6, Revelation 19 is the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39 — whereas Revelation 20 is the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38. Ezekiel 39:26 says that Israel — when the Lord Jesus returns — will “live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.”
On the other hand, when Satan attacks the “beloved city” (Revelation 20:9), he is actually attacking Israel that have already “been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel” (Ezekiel 38:8) — and that he went “against the people who are [already] gathered from the nations” (Ezekiel 38:12).
Therefore, at a bare minimum, the whole of Israel — the 144,000 — must be present together when the Lord Jesus returns — because He promised to gather Israel at His return. Moreover, Israel must all be present together in the final battle of Revelation 20. At the very least, all chosen Israelites according to the flesh must have been raised by that point.
Then if only those who are “dead in Christ” and those “who are alive, who remain” will “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), then that group in addition those who have already been raised (Matthew 27:52) must include all of the 144,000. Thus the resurrection of Matthew 27:52 must — at the very least — include all of the 144,000 since before the Lord Jesus’ time on earth.
Now returning to the parable of the laborers, the Lord concludes by saying, “the last” — that is, those who have hitherto worked only “one hour” — the time of their mortal lives on earth — “shall be first, and the first,” — that is, the antediluvian sons of God who have been working for many millennia by this point — “[shall be] last.” (Matthew 20:16).
Although Luke 13:30 indicates we cannot apply this categorically in every case, but suffice to say that many cases will follow this rule according to Mark 10:31, Matthew 19:30, and Matthew 20:16.
We find this interpretation fulfilled at the very least in the apostles, who — having worked only the single hour of their mortal lives — will judge the twelve tribes of Israel when they are finally resurrected at the Lord Jesus’ return. The Lord Jesus says in Matthew 19:27-30 — just prior to the parable of the laborers in the vineyard,
28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms on account of My name, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.
Indeed, the twelve apostles will be first because they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 Israelites who will be saved are the main part of the heavenly city (Revelation 21:16-17) — which is the twelve tribes of Israel itself (Revelation 21:12) — which is also the bride of Christ (Revelation 21:9).
The apostles formed the foundation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus (Matthew 16:18, Ephesians 2:20, Revelation 21:14) in the work they have already done — whereas the final portion of the remnant of Israel very clearly have a role to play in the end of Mystery Babylon, as we have already described.
The reason we mention this is to highlight the privileged position anyone who believes they are Israelites find themselves in these modern times — and to be able to work for the Kingdom of God. Those of the 144,000 who will be alive on earth during Israel’s atonement are also candidates to be first in the Kingdom — provided that they actually work.
BABYLON MUST FALL
Then what are those alive during the end of the end working for specifically? Paul says in Ephesians 6:12,
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Now Paul tells us in no uncertain terms that our struggle is “not against flesh and blood” — so we should find it strange that so many Christians believe it to be their so-called “Christian duty” to fight against flesh and blood. No, Paul tells us that our battle is against the powers of the heavenly places — that is, Satan and his angels — and he commands us to put on Spiritual weapons and armor in Ephesians 6:13-17 so that we “will be able to resist on the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.” (Ephesians 6:13)
We have already seen in Revelation 19 and 20 that the Lord Jesus fully intends on using the full force of the people of Israel — raised in glorious, angelic bodies to the heavens — as His own personal army. He says that Israel will be turned into a “new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges” and will “thresh the mountains and pulverize them” (Isaiah 41:15). Thereafter, Isaiah 41:16 says,
You will winnow them, and the wind will carry them away, and the storm will scatter them; but you will rejoice in the Lord, you will boast in the Holy One of Israel.
The Lord says to Israel in Jeremiah 51:20,
You are My shatterer, My weapon of war; And with you I shatter nations, And with you I destroy kingdoms.”
Yes, this is what Israel will do in the heavens when the Lord Jesus returns. We have been promised to shatter those “spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12) — so let’s stop wasting our time with “flesh and blood” and set our sights on storming the very heavens themselves in the Lord Jesus’ name — under His command.
However, before we can do that, there is work for us to do while still in our mortal bodies — and we need to make full use of Paul’s Spiritual arsenal from Ephesians 6:13-17 in order to do so. Zechariah 4:7 says,
What are you, you great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring out the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”
When the “top stone” is placed on a temple, only then has the temple been completed. Now the heavenly fulfillment of the temple is the temple of the Lord Jesus’ own body (John 2:21). Moreover, we are all individually parts of that body (1 Corinthians 12:27, Romans 12:5) — and we must play a part in the “building up of the body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12).
Therefore, when the top stone has been placed on the temple, then the body of the Lord Jesus has been completed and Israel has been fulfilled. When the 144,000 have been sealed and the fullness of the nations has come in, then the temple — the Lord Jesus’ bride — will have prepared herself (Revelation 19:7).
Simultaneously, when the top stone is being laid on the top of the temple, there will be a “great mountain” seemingly in opposition to the temple being completed. Moreover, the entire prophecy of Zechariah 4 is inextricably linked with the Revelation as well (Zechariah 4:11, Zechariah 4:14, Revelation 11:4) — and the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3 will play a key role on earth in the completion the temple — while all on earth work in unity with the Lord Jesus’ “chosen angels” (1 Timothy 5:21) as the Revelation makes clear all throughout.
As we have covered in great detail, all of the Lord Jesus’ cherubim — the executors of His will — work in unison with one another by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, only the Holy Spirit could so perfectly connect the actions of men and angels with one another as we see in the Revelation.
Now we have already shown how a great mountain in the context of the events of the Revelation refers to Mystery Babylon itself. Therefore, when the top stone is being lain on the temple, then Mystery Babylon must “become a plain” (Zechariah 4:7) — that is, it must be picked up and cast into the sea. In other words, Mystery Babylon must fall in order for us to complete our work in completing the temple.
Now Revelation 14:8 — directly after the 144,000 have been sealed in Revelation 14:1-5 — says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.” Then Revelation 18:2 echoes the same, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!”
Many Christian eschatologists presume that each time we find the pronouncement of Babylon’s fall — especially in Revelation 14:8 — that it merely refers to the future fall of Babylon. However, as we have pointed out, each time refers to the actual fall of Babylon — because the Revelation covers the same events three times. As such, it seems to have escaped everyone’s notice that when the mountain is thrown into the sea (Revelation 8:8), it is also referring to the actual fall of Babylon.
In this matter, we find yet more proof of that idea that the Revelation covers the same events three times.
When we read Revelation 18, we very clearly see that Mystery Babylon — to a large extent — constitutes a system of international trade. In these modern times, we can scarcely imagine how the white, Western world could possibly be more involved in international trade. Therefore — and more specifically — the system of apostate, western Christianity bound up in the whoredom of international trade must come to and end.
Life as we know it must come to an end.
But why must Mystery Babylon fall? As we discussed in our essay on the mark of the beast, Paul tells us that the apostasy of lawlessness — Mystery Babylon — comes “in accord with the activity of Satan” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). Satan’s purpose is to persecute the woman (Revelation 12:13) — which is the remnant of Israel charged with spreading the gospel. It is no wonder then that Abaddon (Revelation 9:11) — the seventh head of Satan who has not yet come (Revelation 17:10) — makes war with the two witnesses and will even succeed in killing them (Revelation 11:7).
Ultimately then, Satan wants the true Israel to die — and he wants the gospel to die along with it. He has brought about the apostasy of lawlessness in order to bring about that goal. To make things worse, the Lord Jesus says in Matthew 24:22,
And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
If the days were not cut short, Satan’s work would be so complete and so effective that all of Adamkind would die.
In the world in which we find ourselves, the Adamic people are in a rapid, free-fall descent — with numbers declining at an exponential rate. Yet because apostate, Western Christianity consider every intelligent biped to be Adamic purely by virtue of sharing “human experience,” the Adamic world doesn’t even notice their own imminent demise. The Lord Jesus says in Matthew 24:37-38,
37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Indeed, we see that Adamic people “did not understand until the flood came and took them all away” — therefore, the imminent death of all Adamic people must go by completely unnoticed in order to fulfill the words of the Lord Jesus’ own prophecy. But the truth for us is that Adamkind are standing against the precipice of doom — being bred out of existence — and worrying too much about money to have enough children to do anything to stop it.
Moreover, the extinction of the Adamic people is undoubtedly the primary goal of international Jewry — the wounded head of the first beast of Revelation 13. By the international system which Satan has created through the Jews, Satan is essentially wiping Adamkind off of the face of the earth. By the apostate Christianity which Satan has created, Adamkind in their wretched materialistic desires are begging him to destroy them.
That apostate Christianity is any Christianity which looks forward to a comfortable, fleshly life on earth — whether a life of watching Netflix, sport and drinking beer — or a life of longing for some kind of “Aryan utopia” — both of which amount to a “mind set on the flesh” which is “hostile toward God” (Romans 8:7) and “cannot please God.” (Romans 8:8)
There’s only one way out of this: the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Revelation. The way out is not Donald Trump, nor the Jews building the “third temple,” nor a race war or any kind of revolutionary war, nor your guns — nor literally anything else.
Israel need to live up to their calling, or all of Adamkind will die. But Israel will live up to their calling because God promised they would. Therefore, if we as individual Israelites fail, others will merely take our place.
The death of all life is in our sight — and at this point, on a fleshly level, there’s simply no stopping it — because the Lord Jesus said the only way that it would be stopped is if His Father cut the days short — not any kind of material revolution or “race war.” He said, “Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit.” (Zechariah 4:6)
In terms of our material lives and the survival of Adamkind, the Jews have won — and that also needs to happen in order to fulfill prophecy — so we might as well just accept it. The Lord Jesus says to Daniel in Daniel 12:7,
…it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish smashing the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
So we see that Israel must have their power smashed as a part of the criteria for fulfillment of the time, times and half a time to end — in addition to the fulfillment of the 144,000.
Just as when the Assyrian envoy stood outside Jerusalem and taunted Hezekiah and his men — Hezekiah realized there could be no material victory when he said to Isaiah, “This day is a day of distress, rebuke, and humiliation; for children have come to the point of birth, and there is no strength to deliver them.” (2 Kings 19:3) Likewise, there is no strength left to deliver children for Israel — or even all of Adamkind. It’s over.
We cannot fight Jewry because they receive their orders from “spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12, Revelation 2:9, Revelation 3:9). We need to take the fight to the source — but we need to finish the temple first.
Thus Isaiah replies to Hezekiah, “Do not be fearful because of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me.” (2 Kings 19:6) Moreover, the Lord says to the second temple builders in Haggai 2:4 — who, as with Zechariah 4, serve as a copy and shadow for the heavenly temple builders,
‘But now take courage, Zerubbabel,’ declares the Lord, ‘take courage also, Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and all you people of the land take courage,’ declares the Lord, ‘and work; for I am with you,’ declares the Lord of armies.
The Lord also says in Zechariah 8:6-9 — another second temple prophecy,
6 The Lord of armies says this: ‘If it is too difficult in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be too difficult in My sight?’ declares the Lord of armies. 7 The Lord of armies says this: ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; 8 and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’ 9 “The Lord of armies says this: ‘Let your hands be strong, you who are listening in these days to these words from the mouth of the prophets, those who spoke in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of armies was laid, so that the temple might be built.
There is work to be done — and that work may be seen through Revelation 8:6 to Revelation 11:19, Revelation 14:6 to Revelation 14:13 and Revelation 15:1 to Revelation 18:24. Read it and see nothing but victory for the workers — the wrath of God poured out on His enemies — and the ushering in the Lord’s coming — just as He said in Matthew 24:45-46,
45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household slaves, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Yes, “many who are first will be last; and the last, first.” (Matthew 19:30) Moreover, fulfilling those passages in the Revelation is the only way out of this — just as John says, “Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it” (Revelation 1:3) — and the Lord says, “behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” (Revelation 22:7)
We have received our orders from the Lord Jesus — so let’s follow orders because He calls us blessed when we do — and He gives us the strength and guidance to build with courage in the face of Satan and his banal world-pantomime.
Furthermore, the Lord says in Luke 18:7-8,
7 now, will God not bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night, and will He delay long for them? 8 I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”
Unfortunately, Christian Identity circles — despite understanding their own identity and the Jewish lies — still have not grasped the full extent of the deception they face — and what’s required of them in the time before the Lord Jesus’ return — being too focused on fleshly wars and fleshly life. There’s so much more left to do than merely sitting around getting angry at how Jews have ruined our material and fleshly existence.
True “faith on the earth” has not come through the ministry of Christian Identity.
Consider the words of Hebrews 5:12 – Hebrews 6:8 — which were written to Israelites who understood their own identity,
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to distinguish between good and evil.
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and about the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
In order to turn the tide, we need to repent from our deeds, cast off the mark of the beast and take upon us the mark of God. We need to press on to maturity. Short of that, there’s simply nothing to be done except to lay down and die. Peter says in Acts 3:19-20,
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you
Personally repenting and returning is what hastens the coming of the Lord Jesus by building His temple. Not getting angry at Jews — or seeking some kind of “Aryan utopia” on earth — or even merely agreeing with or knowing one doctrine or another if it doesn’t produce righteousness within us — even if it’s the correct doctrine.
We must complete the temple, and we must cast Mystery Babylon into the sea — that the harvest may be fulfilled — and that the angel may cry out to the Lord Jesus, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” (Revelation 14:15) From there, we will meet the Lord Jesus in the sky — we will hunt His enemies, and there will be no escape for them.
Then heavens will be ours and we will make sure none oppose Him ever again.
If we take this mantle upon ourselves, then the eminent favor and reward from the Lord Jesus will rest on us who worked in the final hour. Let’s stop delaying His coming and get to work. After all, we have to work only one hour.
Jim Hammer
Sorry guys but Revelation 8:8-9 is NOT about Babylon. You’re way off on that one. However, you guys believe you have the truth – and every other Christian thinks the same – that they have the truth.
Would you guys ever change your mind? Or do you think you have ALL the truth?
“The Greatest Impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it.”
West
Jim Hammer …..
I don’t recognize your name, based on the comment sections of other articles.
Are you suggesting CFT is wrong about “other” teachings as well, or just this one?
Your comment seems to be a broad Rebuke.
Specifically to this article, why is CFT wrong about Rev 8? You provided no reasons or corrections for such an objection.
What would be your interpretation of Rev 8:8?
messianicdruid
Isaiah 55 = My Word [ not book ] will accomplish what I sent it to do. If it is not true it is not God’s Word.
“If any man will do my teaching he will know whether it is from the Father or whether I speak of myself”.
blanched
Gnosticism has its origins in Asiatic and Eastern “religions” and cults. Its ideas are antithetical to western thought, but have wormed their way in. And the Bible does warn about gnosticism, especially in the New Testament with Paul and John. For a good overview of this conflict, read “What the Bible Says About Gnosticism: here:
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/66/Gnosticism.htm
Kevin
Once a person deems themselves a christian – a bible zealot – they tend to imagine their seeking journey is over. They imagine they have found the Truth, God, their true spiritual destiny. This happened to me and it led me into the proverbial wilderness.
From that perspective, the temptation to wield the authority of the bible over others seems like a duty. If you dont do it, you arent a christian.
And that is the opposite of what we should do. The essenes didnt even do this.
What ever is just is true love. Recently i was watching a youtube video about ancient busts and reliefs where symbolism across the world was compared for its hermetic similarities. This brought up a video on my feed about what God wants each zodiac sign to do. I watched it with curiosity and then read the comment section. I found numerous posts from christians condemning the video for its apparant idolatry, and condemning hermetic symbolism itself. They were screaming “repent or be damned!” at people.
This is the same spirit of hatred that has led to the slaughter of so many well meaning truth seekers. A person who looks to the hermetic tradition and sees themes directly reflected in the gospels, for instance, is not somehow engaging in divination or idolatry. Personally, i will always wonder why so many damn male friends of mine have been leo’s. I am just curious. That doesnt mean i accept modernized sun sign astrology crap.
And yet i remember tolerating this brand of intolerance when i was a mod at a CI forum. I am still repenting of it. I am greatful God held me down and stripped me bare.
It is true that the bible is a bastardized representation of truth.
God wants our direct attention. Looking inward, reflecting, praying, seeking. A book that demands your outward devotion is a deviation from His desire for us.
So I am no longer a Christian. I know I can seek God and, for whatever is missing from a true gospel of Christ, He can direct me. I dont believe Joshua was anything but a man of truth who was murdered for pointing inward and away from priests and princes. A great man. Maybe something more. It truly does not matter, for there are men who believe he died and rose and was God in the flesh, and these same men slander, hate, traduce etc. If so many do this then it proves such a belief in and of itself is meaningless.
There are even other men who do not believe Christ was God who do not do these things.
Therefore biblical dogma is useless. If a man studies history, symbolism etc to reflect inwardly on, and he believes in the father, and seeks true justice, then he is on the right track is he not?
Reflect on how that jibes with your own biblical dogma. What difference does a mans belief about window dressing God if He doesnt even seek Him?
There is a cult that has been dressing up our father however they see fit for centuries if not more. Going back to the ancient empire cults of egypt, sumer and persia. A lot of christianity is mirrored in cults that preceeded it.
At the same time our European ancestors communed with the father and had their traditions and culture decimated by the growth of roman christianity. Even the bible calls rome the beast empire!
So with that i bid you all well. If anyone feels similar they are free to email me as long as they have pure aryan blood.
If not, so be it. My conscience feels better admitting this. I am free.
[email protected]
Bryan
Kevin, I think you make a lot of generalizations about Christians that are not true. And from what I’ve read of your comments, sounds like you’ve had some really bad experiences with people who call themselves Christians, and you are reacting against that. I’d also like to know how you concluded that you and all your friends have “pure aryan blood”. How is believing you have “pure aryan blood” any different from people who believe in Jesus Christ? Both take a certain amount of blind faith to believe in, don’t they?
Kevin
Bryan,
If I dont believe it matters to preserve blood line, then blood line doesnt matter. But i do, so i must believe it.
As for your other point. I think you are generalizing my point and reducing it down to “kevin had bad experiences with christians.” Another poster in here made the same generalizatiin after i offered many points that had nothing to do with general christian behavior.
I am yet to hear any responding commentary on those other points. Perhaps you are afraid to admit they are good points.
If.you think the nicean bible is the pristine word of God, and that he ever instated sacfrificing animals to cover sin, or that he ever wanted priests to play middelmen, that is your prerogative, and no longer mine.
God has always wanted man to seek Him in spirit.
Kevin
Some interesting verses to ponder:
“Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.” Psalm 40:6-8
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.” Isaiah 1:11-17
“Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” Micah 6:6-8
“For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.” Jeremiah 7:22-23
westwins
Do you find fault in any of the Gospels and Letters?
If Yes ………… what are those grievance(s).
Also ………….. just wanted to add a bit of commentary on your usage of the passage — 2 Corinthians 3:4:6 in a previous comment.
For those of us who trust that God is able to preserve His word, we use a principle of interpretation (hermeneutics) called — Scripture Interprets Scripture and Context.
Paul wrote those words. My Rhetorical question would be —- Did Paul consider his own words as “Death”? Of course not. The “context” is revealed in the passage. You need to quote the entirety of that passage.
Should we also believe that the words of Jesus as recorded by John, Mark, Matthew and Luke as “words that kill”? Of course not.
Paul, in speaking to the Corinthians, was teaching them that the LAW OF MOSES brought death. The “letter of the law” is in reference to the Law delivered by Moses. The “spirit of the Law” would be to understand how Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and allowing the “Spirit” to teach us on how to live through the words of the Apostles and Jesus Himself (2 (Timothy 3:16)
The writer of Hebrews further extrapolates on this concept. The Law of Moses is what kills because it can’t save. Again … read Hebrews for further commentary.
I don’t want to go any further, because my intent is not to “debate” with you. But I can’t let such a gross interpretation of Scripture go unchallenged for any younger Christian who may happen to stumble across this comment thread.
Jesus’ words and the words of the Apostles is not what Paul was speaking to when he recorded those words (2 Corinthians 3:4-6).
That would make zero sense. Paul writes the “letter kills” but then writes 13 letters which we are believe “kills”? Kind of ridiculous, would you agree? Rhetorical.
Not to mention these words by Paul — “….let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord……” 1 Corinthians 14:37
Paul is saying that his words (letter) are inspired by God — but then contradicts himself by saying that his “letter” kills. Makes no sense.
I really have no interest in speaking to, or about the OT. You have your issues with it ………….. fine. Not my interest. Not my expertise.
MY CURIOUSITY ………………… what are your thoughts about the New Testament?
What issues do you have with Matthew, Mark, John, Luke, Paul, James, Peter, John, and Jude. (Hope I didn’t leave anyone out)
If Jesus was real and His Apostles are real peoples ………………. what should we do about the Letters/Documents that they wrote?
If your answer is simply to suggest that we can’t trust what was written ………………..
I’m not interested in that argument. I’ve already decided for myself that I will have faith that God is powerful enough to preserve the Word that He wants us to have.
I’m curious if you have any issues with the “doctrine/teachings” from those men.
Thanks.
John
westwins, “I’ve already decided for myself that I will have faith that God is powerful enough to preserve the Word that He wants us to have.”
Agreed. Christianity 101.
If God exists, He must have made sure that enough of His Word was made intelligible through those He chose to preserve it. He most certainly would not have left it up to chance, or to the whims of editors and scribes.
The only valid argument against this idea is that God exists but has no interaction or control over what happens in the world He created, and that He is ultimately unknowable. Many Jews believe this, but it is contradicted by the Bible at every verse.
If you don’t believe God had a hand in the compilation of the gospels and epistles, then why not? The only reason you would argue this is that you want to throw them away because your agenda is to discredit them, so that you are not obligated to follow them.
rhesus
Yes, some people believe that God created the universe, wound up the watch per se, and then stood back and let it wind down without any more involvement. I assume that those who believe the Bible is purely random and merely the work of fallible men see God this way.
Kevin
Westwins,
I don’t think you quite understand my position. Perhaps I have not been clear enough.
I have previously stated that the word of God in Truth is His logos, which is accessible by all men who favor truth and justice.
It would be quite contrary to His power to contain all of those logos within one single book, and also rather foolish of Him, which He is not, a fool.
So with that desire for truth I see that men who had an empire to run formed the nicean bible. I would ask you why it is you believe that God preserved this book in perfect condition? Did He personally tell you this? Is it not just what you believe to be true? But have you endeavored to challenge that belief to make certain?
As for the gospels and letters…….surely there are tons of truth in them. Again, i never said there wasnt. All i said is that the bible should not be religiousized and deemed entirely of God.
There is evil in the world, as there was back then. I choose to mindful of that evil and to maintain rightness of though as best I can.
Hence why highlight those verses in the OT that clearly express disdain for ritual sacrifice. Surely you dont have to be an expert on the OT to realize the implications.
I certainly am no expert.
I could quote the gothas from the avesta of zoroaster and thise quotes, many of them i believe, would speak true to the heart. I could quote the controversial oera linda book from Europe and many of those quotes would ring true as well.
But do I then turn either book into my only reference for how i view and worship God? Heavens no, and especially if i noticed contradictions or knew if a shady history of scribes handling them.
So I dont have to throw out anything wonderful that Paul or Peter said, nor do I have to accept everything they say merely because most of what they say is great.
Let us reason together……oddly enough that is recorded in the bible.
So my reason is to go forward in the spirit of truth and trust in the faculties of discernment, keeping in tune with the laws in my heart.
This is an opportunity for greater understanding and a closer relationship to our Father.
So what do you think of those verses admonishing sacrifice? Is it so burdensome to think that certain lawyers and politicians grafted fake stories to steal Gods children as merchandise so that they (us) would be ruled by them?
I have faith that God preserves the laws in my heart and that wherever my mind my have gone dark He can bring it back to Light. To focus instead on putting faith in the letters of a book has issues that i have already outlined.
I used to tell myself “the law and sacrifices were to teach israel the ultimate futility of it.” But then CFT pointed out that the law and sacrifices were given to israel so that they might stumble and be condemned. When I percieved that i knew in my heart God would never do that.
Sure enough there were verses ALL ALONG in the OT explicitly telling us that God never instated such foolish ordinances.
My heart knew it, and luckily the OT retains more than 2 witnesses to that effect.
Therefore I do not take the bible as dogma, for many reasons already stated.
Joshua Christ was murdered by those who hate the Light of truth, by those who vie for power over men. He was not sacrificed like an animal to cleanse us of sin.
Because men still sin, and men must still repent and grieve and overcome darkness. Great men will still be murdered and false religions will still take folk hostage.
But the Light of God remains within us. But we must free ourselves from worldly dogma and take an objective look at ourselves and our books if we are to bask in that light.
Kevin
Rhesus,
No, I see man that way.
Men makes foolish decisions all the time.
Again, when did God personally inform any of you that the nicean bible was His infallible word?
Do you believe our race is only 7,000 years old, despite the existence of high technology dating back much farther?
Because a book says a thing, and because you believe that book, that is why you believe God preserved that book.
But I assure you, God existed long before a single word was writ, certainly before the roman bible, and will exist forever after.
westwins
John — You wrote, “…The only reason you would argue this is that you want to throw them away because your agenda is to discredit them, so that you are not obligated to follow them….”
I agree. And thank you for weighing in.
“Following Christ” would be very easy if one is allowed to ‘make up’ the terms.
I for one will not believe knowing God and understanding His precepts — do I dare suggest “requirements” — should be an Objective reality and not Subjective.
We can see what happens when Christian Living is reduced to a Subjective reality — i.e., the Roman Catholic Church.
Kevin
Well since neither John nor westwins has the decency to address the glaring issues of the OT, but would rather make character based judgments (that i am motivated by wanting to create my own subjective version of God, and not motivated for truth), then to any that can see with the eyes God gave them, my point is only strengthened.
God speed.
John
Kevin, with all due respect, it’s really hard to take your comments about biblical manuscripts seriously because they show a serious lack of knowledge about their evolution.
Contrary to what you claim, the books to be included in the Bible, especially the New Testament, were NOT determined at the Council of Nicea. This belief alone on your part shows a very superficial understanding of the subject. And you base many of your criticisms of the Bible on this misunderstanding.
I strongly suggest you do some serious reading on this subject of Nicea by biblical scholars who actually know what they are talking about. A very good place to start is Wesley Huff’s blog. If you are truly dedicated to finding the truth as you say you are, you will immerse yourself in Huff’s material. Until then, again, it’s hard to take what you say without a huge grain of salt.
https://www.wesleyhuff.com/blog
Kevin
John,
4th century manuscripts?
Well, I still have prompts that I posed that you have not addressed. I don’t understand why.
What do you make of the several witnesses from prophets who were exhorting man away from sacrifices, vain feasts etc and pointing instead to right action that come from the law of the heart?
So even 4th or 2nd century manuscripts will not change my mind due to these and many other issues.
Dont you know that the adversary opposes truth and light and God?
And yet Christians by and large all think the adversary opposes christianity itself. What did the adversary oppose before these codexes were written?
If Christ were here today do you think He would uphold blind reverence for a book despite its contradictions?
He would shake his head and remind you that God is a spirit, not a book.
I can see that these exchanges are going nowhere. I have made my own exhortations which have been ignored.
Nothing else for me here.
westwins
Kevin,
“… would rather make character based judgments that i am motivated by wanting to create my own subjective version of God, and not motivated for truth…”
My apologies Kevin. I simply believe that by having a Subjective standard, the end result is a deceived heart.
But ……………. I base this belief by making an argument from Scripture. Since we can’t use Scripture as an Absolute measure, then it is futile to even have the conversation.
I believe you when you say you seek truth with an unselfish heart.
Please accept my apology.
Your path is just not for me.
John
Kevin, “Nothing else for me here.”
You have a firm grasp of the obvious. What’s surprising is how long it took you to figure out that no one here was going to find your rambling and unoriginal disagreements with the Bible persuasive in any way. If you do a simple Google search, you will find many biblical scholars over the centuries who have addressed every single one of your objections. Again, not one single point you’ve brought up hasn’t been considered countless times before. You don’t want it to be true, so you will not accept any explanation offered to you. And you seem highly emotional and take every comment personally, as a veiled personal attack, which makes it very difficult to objectively make good decisions when it comes to weighing such profound subjects.
Kevin
John,
If my points have all been addressed by scholars, then surely you can elucidate those points yourself. But I dont think you can. You are at a loss and striking out like a cornered serpent.
Sorry, but I cant help but throw your defaming b.s. right back in your lap.
Calling me emotional when you refuse to address objective prompts, taking advantage of opportunities to discredit my character instead, all show that you bear bad fruit. And dont think that such behavior isnt emotional itself. The key is not letting emotions dictate logic, which you is exactly what you are doing.
But since you call yourself a christian, you think you are approved of God. What silliness. Sacrifices, feasts, and labels. All garbage.
Westwins,
I appreciate your peaceable spirit.
CFT
“I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.” (Romans 16:17)
Kevin, you will not be satisfied with any response you get here from any of the commenters. You are looking for a fight not understanding. Look for answers elsewhere from your like-minded gnostic allies. You won’t find agreement with your views here, so don’t waste your time or our time. Nor do we need to justify our beliefs to any confirmed unbeliever like yourself because it is a futile exercise.
Thanks
“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)
Kenneth
For those interested in better understanding why the gnostic “gospels” were rejected from the canon, and how their influence still entraps and misleads Christians even today, I’d highly recommend the following books:
“Dethroning Jesus: Exposing Popular Culture’s Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ” by Darrell Bock and Daniel Wallace
“Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels” by Dr. Craig Evans
“The Pattern of Christian Truth: A Study in the Relations between Orthodoxy and Heresy in the Early Church” by: H.E.W. Turner
cas
You said this “Do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads”
This bible says this
Joh_15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
So how do you explain this contradiction away? What is THE MOST DIVISIVE BOOK in the bible most prone to speculation and outright fabrication for profit and disunity among believers?
So do you not see if you are a “servant or slave” as the word servant means slave, how then can you say you know what the real Christ Jesus does now?
slave and friend are exact opposites.
Do you not see the word play in the bible? was it not written by lawyers?
How do you explain this ?
re
“with reference to,” used from c. 1700 in legalese, from Latin (in) re “in the matter of,” from ablative of res “property, goods; matter, thing, affair,” from Proto-Italic *re-, from PIE *reh-i- “wealth, goods” (source also of Sanskrit rayi- “property, goods,” Avestan raii-i- “wealth”). Its non-legalese use is
pent (adj.)
pent
“kept in, confined,” 1540s, variant of penned, past participle of pen (v.2). Pent-up (also pent up) is from 1580s.
So according to the bible the “prince” is lucifer and was supposedly cast out, so what is in this current earth most be the body of said snake wiggling without a head to guide it. Or if as you claim the prince was not cast out then well the bible is a farce.
Aspects of the fallen one lucifer, quite possibly proving the earth was always lucifer’s because of its fall
Eze 27:33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise
Eze_28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God
A Lament over the King of Tyre
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Last time i checked a family is part of a nation, therefore by simple deductive reasoning this passage was probably added by jews or their puppets to so division in christian families.
Isa_14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Kevin
I have come to the realization that the bible is NOT the word of God, for it was indeed put together by lawyers, clerics and politicians of Rome.
Whereas the noble and just Goths had only 4 books in their codex argenteus – the gospels of Christ.
No Paul. No revelation. No old testament. They are all useless theology. Not that there arent truths therein – but none of these books are religion.
The word of God is manifest Light of truth. Gnosis. The greatest teaching Joshua gave was “worship in spirit and truth.”
For instance all His children have the laws on their hearts. The Scythians were monotheistic, following papaios the all father,and they are everywhere recorded as being the most just men, surpassing the Greeks and Romans.
This is because the law is in their hearts, and because they knew God through the spirit, not some book.
Our ancestors kept an oral tradition, knowing full well what would happen if their history and traditions fell into the hands of magi priests.
Look towards ancient China to find out where sacrificing animals to an all father comes from. They perverted the ways they had learned from western aryans.
Our Father NEVER instated sacrifice for atonement. I am free of such silly notions that God would have ever done so.
He communes via the spirit, the subconscious if you will, not through mans ordinances. He was never with the levites. The OT story was likely rejected by the Goths who knew better.
The magi from the east were the ice giants of European myth. They were the serpents in the garden.
https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/voices/evidence-for-original-monotheism-in-ancient-china
Religion is prison. Christianity does not worship God it worships a book, which is why our race can find no commonality.
The book necessitates that teachers and/or priests stand on top of it, because common folk cannot, and will never, grasp its meaning. So as Christians, they seek out men to explain it to them. Hence the thousands of sects that exist today. Total chaos.
The “bible as our god” is not God’s doing. It is man’s.
Don’t kill, steal, lie/defame/slander, hate your brother, be sexually deviant etc etc.
Things we all know.
And practice moderation. Most Aryan people know right from wrong unless they have been deceived.
I believe gnostic christianity was perverted – gatekept – just as so many of them were put to death and their writings destroyed or hidden.
And yet enough of the truth remained in our bible that we can sense it.
God is a spirit and abhors religion.
westwins
Kevin,
Curious ……………….. what instructions in the Gospels and the Letters do you find counter productive to White Society?
Kevin
Certainly there is great truth in the bible, especially the gospels. But there also was lots of contention early on about what was canon and what wasnt.
To think that the nicean bible made up of 66 books is “THE word of God” seems absurd. An absurdity that I am ashamed to have believed in.
God is a spirit, and His word is the logos. His desire is for man to seek Him, not rest upon words in a book.
I can read the gospels and contemplate what I have read, and in an honest spirit agree with the truth.
However it is not important that i know about covenants or that i find the proper biblical doctrine.
I have the laws written within me, and a desire understand, a hunger for truth.
That desire has brought me where it had brought me in years past, before CI etc, to a revelation or “gnosis” of something: God never commanded or advised a single soul to sacrifice animals or build temples.
I believe early gnostic Christians knew this.
Consider that gnostics were decimated and that their writings are largely lost.
What we have from them I.would attribute to the recordings of individual men, and not THE word of God per say.
I do not believe in a demiurge however figuratively it touches upon a powerful truth that is even a primary belief of the zorastrians – that there is a counter force to God in the mind, reflected in the fleshy need for man to create his own demiurge.
The serpent in the garden, the magi of the east. Enchanters, priests, middle men seeking to deter men from their own logos link to God, create a god of their own making and become gods over men. To me this is a timeless aspect of the war of good vs evil.
I do believe Joshua was more like a yogi than we think. Meaning, the true meat of His gospel pertains to mans inner relationship to God, and mans need to know himself, self reflect and pray in solitude to the Father.
Reflecting on what should be the best all encompassing doctrine that describes the bible is, to me, a distraction.
This idea of covenants switching from one branch of our people to another is completely irrelevant and, IMHO, a huge distraction. It is beyond what is most important.
And it is clear to me that white nations apart from Israel were following Father in spirit and truth all along. Origen agreed that the Scythians were not pagans. We know the Frisians, Irish, pre classical Greeks, persians, early Romans etc all worshipped the father.
And that is all that matters. Without a bible, they knew to abhor race mixing, usury, murder, adultery etc. How?
Have we seen good fruits come from a nation that made the nicean bible its god? I just dont think we have.
It has either been a papal theocracy (Europe) or a multi-denominational deist pagan culture.
I think the fact that the goths rejected all but the 4 gospels is telling. I think Christ abhorred the religion of Israel tbh.
westwins
Are you the Kevin that commented here in the past specifically dealing with the 144,000? We also spoke in private emails.
westwins
Kevin,
Thanks for responding. Although you did not answer my question directly.
I’m just curious whether you find the teachings in either the Gospels or the Letters productive or non-productive.
I personally have no problems with any of the instructions — it seems if we simply followed them, our “Christian” Society would look completely different.
Given all that you said …………………. how will God judge us? And how would we know if we are left to simply trust our “instinct”.
Or are you of the “All White People” will receive Eternal Life way of thinking.
Thanks.
anatole
Up until the 20th century, most Christians were illiterate and did not read the Bible.
The only ones who read it were the priest class and the upper class who used their financial prosperity as proof of their blessing of God.
So for most of the Christian era, Christians did not read the Bible, yet managed to somehow walk in faith.
If we need to read the Bible in order to be a real Christian, then the vast majority of Christians who ever lived won’t be saved, and that’s just foolish to believe such a thing.
Take, for example, the verse often quoted by students of the Bible, 2 Timothy 2:15, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
This verse could not possibly refer to the average person or Christian who not only could not read, but had no access to books or manuscripts.
Timothy must have had access, but Paul could not possibly think that most believers could “study” the word in any way as Timothy apparently could.
So the true faith must be possible without actually studying the Bible, analyzing the words, creating doctrines, etc. It would take another 1,400 years before the first Bible was published on a press, and then many hundreds more years before books were affordable to the average Christian.
Christianity can’t be dependent on “studying” the word, which is an activity for monks and priests, not for congregations.
westwins
anatole,
Jesus said, “…..He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”
How would we know His commands without reading His Word? Yes of course, some of His commands are just common sense — thou shall not murder as an example.
Jesus said His yoke was easy and His burden light. But, we still need to understand what He meant by this statement by reading His Word.
Why did the Apostles bother to write Letters in the first place if we don’t need His Word???
In regard to your comment about those from our past —- God is a Just and Merciful Judge. I trust His judgment concerning those who did not have access to His Word.
But we are without excuse. You would agree with that, correct?
Kevin
Westwins,
You asked “how would we know without the written word….”
And what you call “just instinct” isn’t exactly what I mean.
I would ask you this:
How would we know if a written account is legitimately from God? What are we trusting in? Surely there must be a reason why something must be believed.
So either way it seems we have no choice but to self examine, reflect and contemplate, all amidst thoughtful prayer on these things.
It is true that early christians were decimated, their writings destroyed or hidden (as with our history dating back to and before egypt) and that certain men of Rome – politicians – ultimately decided what should be canon.
My instinct tells me to be wary of biblical dogma, because it does promote this idea of blindly following after written accounts.
If important books are missing (which they are) then trusting ONLY in the written accounts we have left will never give us the whole story.
And, if the laws are writ on our heart, then we should certainly self reflect and examine what we read thoughtfully lest incomplete if not false dogmas enter our minds and take root.
And yes, i am that Kevin.
Kevin
Also consider the issue with the census, where God forces David to sin so that he can punish Israel.
We have 2 accounts of this event. One says God caused it, the other says satan did it.
Or with Job. We are told it was satan afflicting job, but at the end of his afflictions it is said that God did all the evil unto Job.
Think. Reflect.
Then you have this dogma regarding God giving Israel the law so that they would stumble over it, so that He could then curse them to eternal death.
That is wickedness, not love, and I dont believe God would do that.
Just as I dont believe our God gave Israel the written laws, commanded them to build temples, do sacrifices etc. Christ abhored such things, and there are OT scriptures showing clearly that God abhors temples made with hands.
So without our seeking gnosis through thought and reflection, but instead trusting in an old collection of stories put before us by Romans, handled previously by israelite priests and kings, we are left with a written dogma.
But the logos are from God and given to man, directly.
Read the Socratic dialogues for, IMHO, a great example of what a thoughtful man sounds like vs a dogmatic guru of Greece.
If we shirk the direct logos and His laws on our heart for a book – and that book is incomplete, mistranslated or, dare I say, somewhat invented, then how will we ever know our Father?
Matthew
Kevin, if you don’t mind my asking, was there something that you can point to that caused you to sour on bible-based Christianity? I know a lot of Christians have a bad experience with dogmatic pastors, etc. Is that what happened with you?
westwins
Kevin,
Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t sure if your questions were rhetorical; or that you were actually seeking answers.
I inquired into your comment mostly because I just find what others believe as interesting i.e., how each one of us comes to believe various things.
But let me know if you are still looking for answers.
It is nice when people who comment here come back and address any questions that people ask of them. Cheers.
Cali
Here’s an interesting article about Christian worship before the Bible was codified, using a book called the “Didache”, the essentials of early Christian life….really fascinating….I never knew about this….
https://aleteia.org/2018/03/18/what-did-christianity-look-like-before-the-bible/
Kevin
Matthew,
No not really. Although, prior to coming to CI in 2016 I certainly did have a sour taste due to some early life church experiences.
I believe I provided a few reasons already why I dont think bible dogma is good.
I think some Christians truly believe that if something is not in the scriptures, then it didnt happen or doesnt exist.
And i think many Christians think that God broke His own moral law by giving His children the written law and sacrificial ordinances. I reject that after a long stretch of contemplation and prayer, as well as reflecting on history itself.
I believe it was man who instated such ordinances. If you look to sumer or babylon or greece or egypt etc etc you will find that there is an ancient tradition of a group of persons who are recorded having shared technology and secrets with various peoples, lifting them out of disarray. Veracocha come to mind.
These serpent priests became like gods to the peoples they effected. I think they were royalty from a culture that was destroyed in a cataclysm, and were deified as gods. Hermes Trismigestis was just a man, and yet he was deified as a god (mercury). So was Buddha a man, and then deified as a god.
The bible calls them serpents or “satan.” But this “satan” also exists in us, since we too are men. Remember the serpent was of the tree that was the written law. History seems to point to the theme of priests i mentioned above.
I think – and this is just my opinion – that the Hebrews inherited a perverse practice from serpent priests. Notice Christ called all of Israel serpents, and specifically the pharisees.
You have to go beyond the bible. The serpent priests were in Egypt, sumer, India and China. The chinese have always worshipped serpents.
I believe that Christians who think adam kind are only 7ish thousand years old are mistaken. The bible is not the supreme book of the history of creation. It doesnt even touch on pre-dynastic egypt and the head scratching technology, or where they got it from. It leaves out the history of aryan peoples of advanced technology that reaches back some 11,000 years.
The bible is not a good source for history, and considering whose hands it has been in (as i mentioned above) it shouldn’t be the end all for those who seek God in spirit and truth.
So no, this isnt some reaction to bad pastors at a local church. I have read the bible several times and studied it constantly over the past 6 years.
But I also have gotten back into studying history, as well as considering the history of monotheism in Europe and elsewhere.
I posted a link above that talks about the chinese religion to shang di, which is very similar to the levitical system, which is also very similar to the rituals of those danaan Greeks of the Illiad, whom also sacrificed lambs to atone for their sins against Apollo.
Joshua Christ points us away from dogmas and institutions. I believe it is implied in His gospels that we embrace a gnostic approach. Above all, love you brethren and your God. Look after the inner man and the laws on His heart. Pray, think, do not be decieved by men, past or present. Who put the bible together and who was Paul? For me, I stop at Christ.
So I have not soured on Christ. I just think the bible is not some holy and perfect record of Truth, even if it does have some of the most profound and relevant writings you will ever find. As a whole, however, it has been tampered with and depleted of relevant books.
It would have been real easy for such tampering to occur post the destruction of judea, and after scores of early Christians were murdered.
anatole
westwins: “How would we know His commandments without reading His word?”
Well, Christians managed to know His commandments for almost 2,000 years without ever having studied the Bible for themselves. As Kevin said, I believe that God wrote the truth on the hearts of his true sons, his people so that they would know His commandments without having to rely on having to actually read the physical Bible or on a permanent priest class to interpret it for us.
Yes, God is merciful and looks into our hearts, not at what we have on our book shelves. There are those who claim if you don’t read your Bible, you cannot be saved. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that nor could it because very few people in the ancient world up until modern times could read.
Nor could any of the apostles have foreseen a future where the gospels would be mass produced and where everyone, even the poorest people could read and own a “bible”. The apostles had no reason to think this would ever happen for the average Christian follower, and their writings show that. The gospel would be spread by word of mouth to fulfill the Great Commission.
Christians were meant to be part of congregations led by “overseers” or pastors who were literate in the Word. This relationship required an enormous amount of trust in that “overseer” to be faithful to what the gospels actually said. Even though most Christians can now read and own their own Bibles, nothing much has changed. They still put an enormous trust in their pastors to teach them the Word.
westwins: “But we are without excuse. You would agree with that, correct?”
Having a Bible and being able to read it doesn’t necessarily make us better Christians, and one look at the faith today will bear that out. Being college educated you will still struggle understanding many parts of the NT, even after reading them many times. Newspapers are written at a fourth grade reading level for a reason, but the Bible is far beyond that and requires much more than basic literacy.
So, no, having a Bible and reading it cannot possibly make us responsible to understand all of it in God’s eye. He knows how hard it is to understand, and He knows that scholars are still disputing its meaning after 2,000 years. What’s important is that we understand the basics of the faith and its simplicity. Ironically, intense Bible study can often confuse people and lead them away from the simplicity of it.
Imagine yourself as one of those early Christians, illiterate and poor, but of great faith. In many ways, they were much better off than we are today with our mass produced Bibles and thousands of pastors with different doctrines and interpretations to choose from. To me, that’s not real freedom, that’s confusion, and can lead to despair and falling away from the faith. Keep it simple.
westwins
anatole,
Curious your beliefs ………
Do you believe in Jesus? Who was He to you.
Second — what happens when we die? Is there Eternal Life? For whom?
anatole
westwins, my beliefs are traditional Christian. I believe Christ was the son of God incarnate. He came to gather and redeem His creation, His children of Adam. He died and was resurrected so that we do not have to face eternal death.
You ask what happens when we die? Is there salvation? When we die, I presume our existence is suspended until the resurrection. Who will be saved? That is up to God alone, though many Christians through time seem intent upon putting themselves in the seat of judgment and throwing all those they don’t approve of in the lake of fire, giving Christianity a bad name, and bad taste in many mouths.
God does something that none of us can do, and that is look into our hearts. Christians who judge always do it superficially, based on the limited information they have, based on their own ignorance and bias. God sees us in our entirety, and His judgment of us will be complete. Only He knows us. We may think we know the letter of the law of salvation, but that’s meaningless without God’s mercy, and that’s what we can never know. I trust in Him to judge me fairly, and completely.
Who will be saved? All those with a sincere and repentant heart, who made a sincere effort to follow the simple commands of God, mostly to love your fellow children of Adam as you would that they love you. That is the whole of the law.
westwins
Ironically…………… most of what you believe about God, Jesus and Eternity comes from the Scriptures.
anatole
westwins, I’m not sure why you would say what I believe about Christianity is “ironic”. I never said I didn’t or haven’t read the Bible. I have. Much of it many times in different ways. Has all that reading and studying (which can puff us up) made me a better Christian, though? Every other Christian claiming they know what “real” Christianity is. Personally, I think the best way to live a Christian life is to remove yourself and your family, as much as you can, from this mystery babylon. That will do more for you than all the studying and parsing of scripture. My two cents.
lily hammer
Kevin ecrive, “Look towards ancient China to find out where sacrificing animals to an all father comes from. They perverted the ways they had learned from western aryans.”
My understanding is that the ancient aryans traveled East and brought their religious traditions, such as animal sacrifice and even Buddha to the Asians/Chinese. Multiple ancient grave sites discovered in China with tall blond and red haired white men in them, dating back thousands of years. Not sure I’d blame animal sacrifice on the Chinese.
Kevin
Lily,
Sure. Honestly I don’t know who I would blame it on other than the serpent priests of old. All I am trying to convey is that this practice was not unique to Israel.
According to this article the Chinese (be they white or yellow at the time) were sacrificing calves almost a full millennia before Moses was born (depending on how you reckon the biblical timeline):
“The Book of Documents (Chinese Classic of History)—generally attributed to Confucius (551–479 BC)—includes references to sacrifice to Shang Di. In the Canon of Shun, Emperor Shun (c. 2294–2184 BC) is said to have sacrificed to Shang Di.9 The last king of the Shang dynasty (c. 1765–1122 BC), King Zhou, is said to have become morally corrupt and to have neglected Shang Di and sacrifices in the temple of his ancestors.10 Because of these transgressions, heaven ordered the destruction of the Shang dynasty.11
Furthermore, the Chinese historian Sima Qian (145–86 BC), in his Historical Records, records the sacrifice of the first emperor of Qin (259–210 BC), who “sacrificed to the Supreme God at Yong.”12 Elsewhere, Sima Qian indicates that in ancient times, emperors of the Xia dynasty (2070–1600 BC) personally sacrificed to Shang Di at the border.”
Kevin
I’m sorry. I forgot to post the link to the article I quoted above.
https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/voices/evidence-for-original-monotheism-in-ancient-china
This practice of animal sacrifice existed among the serpent priests of Egypt going back to 4,000bc as well, and among the earliest Greeks.
I like what anatole just posted. He/she said it better than I could have.
“The letter killeth and the spirit giveth life.”
The light is a silent voice within you, that same voice that comes through you when you notice injustice. It is Light and it is light as a feather. It knows.
For those that arent saved, are they not those who shirk justice for power, greed etc? Those who know the truth but conceal it so that others remain deceived and remain under their thrall? Do they not hate the Light of God?
Are they not like Sauromon? Are the good not innocent like hobbits?
Are millions of our folk who are forced to work hard, raise families etc damned for the lack of time available for solving the vast riddle of doctrine? And who can attain admirable righteousness if they are confused and in the dark?
Are not millions crying out against war at the moment? Even the decieved who think there are injustices against blacks and jews etc just ignorant? But are they evil?
Some just need a wake up call. How simple is the contrast between good and evil.
If a man bears a bright light within and brings it to others, can they not see it? Even if they dont grasp the truth right away have they not felt a decency and goodness from the sincerity and love shown them?
Is this not how Christ acted? Did he scorn the sick whom were wandering in the darkness that wicked men put on them? Or did he take pity and heal them?
So somehow Joshua went from that simple and inherently compassionate position to damning them all for stumbling in the dark?
That doesnt jibe with what is good. A dark prophecy cloaked in allegory without context comes from satan, not God.
Joshua was the Light of the world. All who spoke after him and added conditions and fearful prophecies were liars.
The written letter does indeed kill. Where is the unity among brethren? I like how CFT will allow me to share an opinion that they may not agree with, but some of us remember a former band that condemns any who differ in the letter of doctrine.
So I believe that the real seedline is duality within. Good and evil is the seedline, even as there is one genetic seedline of brothers, there are two seedlines at war: light and dark.
Make a pyramid in your mind and let the light shine out the dark. Bring singularty to the duality within.
The light has the authority over the dark.
John Knox
Judeo Christian is oxy moronic and an abomination. Repent of your long winded obfuscations, your evil in worshiping the SINaG0Gue of s4T4n and thinking to drag the body of Christ into this evil filth that murdered Christ and continues to murder his sheep. Event the satanic jews themselves admit via their satanic jew controlled wikedpedia that >>> ” Israeli philosopher and Biblical scholar Yehezkel Kaufmann said “The exile is the watershed. With the exile, the religion of Israel comes to an end and Judaism begins.”[30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity
When you support the babylon cult of judaism, you crucify Christ and put his followers to death. REPENT!
Feeney
Strange comment….who are you accusing of “worshiping the SINaG0Gue of s4T4n”? And why do you use gematria-like substitutions in your accusations? Who are these “Judeo Christians” you speak of here?
America/Europe is Israel
@Feeney:. I agree with you regarding the Gematria in his comments unless he is attempting to show how the Synagogue of Satan operates. As to your comment “Who are these “Judeo Christians” you speak of here?” I can enlighten you: They are John Hagee, Paula White, Pat Robertson, Mike Huckabee, Glen Plummer, Franklin Graham, and the list goes on.
And of course, last but not least; the good old Romish church, or known as the Vatican.
https://israelallies.org/israels-top-50-christian-allies
Plus over 95% of the so-called Christian churches. Reaching my late sixties, I have attended quite a few of them, only to be turned off by their Israel first ass kissing.
Here is a story for you:
There was a John Hagee”Friends of Israel” convention in a major city ( pick any). A reporter from the MSM was assigned to write a story of the event. Approaching an attendee, the reporter asked a few questions:
MSM: I see there is quite an audience here.
CZ (Christian Zionist): Oh yes, I hear it is sold out.
MSM: Pastor Hagee must be quite the speaker.
CZ: Oh yes, very powerful, very convincing.
MSM: So, what is his message?
CZ: That we support the state of Israel above all else, whose residents are God’s Chosen.
MSM: I see. So, in your opinion what would Jesus say?
At this point the CZ is short circuited. The evidence is in his countenance. Eventually he responds:. Who is Jesus?
My personal experience with CZs I have encountered is that they are looney.
And as Jesus said:
“These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”. Matt 15:8
Feeney
Thanks, I know who the “judeo-Christians” are, but I was under the impression that John Knox was aiming his criticism at the author of this essay….and he is obviously not a Jew-worshiping judeo-Christian, so I was confused about where he was directing his criticism….
Crush Limbraw
To add to the mix – read both Paradise Restored and Days of Vengeance by David Chilton.
Also available free at Gary North’s site in pdf.